Comments on LJ events you're already bored with

[resonant]

1. Love memes (like the one going on at queenofthorns right now) are much easier these days now that LJ introduced its little thumbtack icon! You can track the entire discussion (to see if anyone you know comments asking for love), or you can track your anonymous comment (so you can see if the person replies to it). It's very cool.

2. Some of the discussion on helenish's Take Clothes Off As Directed seems to be implying that it's a brand-new (and unfair) thing to comment on/criticize a piece of literature by writing another piece of literature in response to it.

But this sort of conversation between two literary works is at least as old as when Christopher Marlowe wrote The Passionate Shepherd to His Love ("Come live with me and be my love/And we will all the pleasures prove") and Sir Walter Raleigh replied with The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd ("If all the world and love were young/And truth on every shepherd's tongue ...").

Comments

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Hm, I was the one who said it was wrong to criticize another story in someone else's story's comments. I don't know if Helen was expressing problems with Xanthe and her problems with Xanthe's stories. I have a severe problem with people who think its OK to dis another author in someone else's story's comments. That just seems spiteful to me- "well, I can't say this in Xanthe's LJ because she will just delete it, so I will say in another person's lj who won't delete my problems with Xanthe's stories."

[cjk1701.livejournal.com]

But Xanthe and any other writers post fiction and thus let it out in the big scary world on its own. Doesn't it mean that it's free game to discuss it anywhere it finds its way to? I can rec a story in my own LJ, I can bitch and rant about a story in my LJ, so why can't I do it in a reply to a discussion someplace else? Do I have to make sure the writer will see my opinion on her writing? It's not like she needs to be able to show up to defend herself - she said everything with her writing already. I don't mean bashing an author "behind her back", but making my own opinion of her work known.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Because it leaves a person who was thinking Helen's story is one thing but after reading the comments it made me question the legitimacy of the story. I don't know if Helen's agenda was to allow people to dis Xanthe's story in her comments but its looking more and more like that is exactly what is going on. Maybe you are comfortable with that, but I'm not.

[wicked-socks.livejournal.com]

Helen's story serves to provoke discussion and debate about slash, feminism (or really, equality in society for whatever subset), BDSM, and our fantasies as opposed to real life. And in the airing out of opinions of discussion some people will disagree, but that doesn't make it dissing. Possibly I missed some comments, but the opinionated people seemed pretty polite about their opinions, and I didn't notice any outright bashing.

I'm definatly not in favour of ouright badmouthing of another person, but it appears not to be that, but discussion going on in that lj.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Hey, as a former English major, I have no problem with LEGITIMATE criticism when warranted. I don't think it is appropriate to have criticism in comments about another person's story in anyone's lj since the story should be what is discussed in an appropriate place.

[wicked-socks.livejournal.com]

See for me, considering the whole compare contrast thing, that post doesn't seem a bad place, but, hey, each to their own.

Out of curiosity, considering that Xanthe's stories are not on lj or a discussion facilitating format (ha, unless I am wrong and can only find the website version) what would you consider the proper place to have such a discussion?

And following on that, Xanthe's story and Helen's story have very different agendas. As Xanthe says in her disclaimer "The alternate universe depicted is intended to be hot and fun - it's not a serious attempt to analyse how such a society would really work." Helen's story on the other hand is definatly about how the society works, and most of the critique of Xanthe's work I've noticed in Helen's lj has been about the two seperate perspectives of the respective fanfics, and which worked better for the critic. So where would you see the proper place of critique regarding the divergence of agenda/perspective (whatever you want to call this type of discussion)?

And why are you finding so much of this criticism to be illegitimate? Is it because of where it is? I am honestly curious.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

This seems to be a good place since this is what res started this post in the first place. She didn't write a story.

As for Xanthe's stories- they are on LJ.

[cjk1701.livejournal.com]

Seeing as the two stories are written about the same thing, more or less, what makes it wrong to discuss them both in comparison to each other in the comments to one of them? Would it be just as wrong to write "I've read this, but I like Xanthe's worldbuilding better, because[...]" in the comments to Helen's fic?

[september1967.livejournal.com]

In an appropriate place, yes. Put it in your lj, put it in a community on discussing such topics.

And I have an issue with someone saying that the stories are written about the same thing because many others keep telling me how very different they are and how Helen's story is an allegory about feminism. The more I read, I am having difficulty seeing Helen's story as more as a dropping off point to rant about another story in her comments.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

They both include the concept of a BDSM universe, but one is a romantic porno fantasy and one is a feminist allegory. How is this such a difficult concept?

It's like how "Stargate SG1" and "JAG" are both about military officers doing their jobs, but one is a sci-fi adventure and one is a legal procedural show. Things can have topics in common and still be quite different.

The more I read, I am having difficulty seeing Helen's story as more as a dropping off point to rant about another story in her comments.

If Helen's point was, "I think Xanthe's story is terrible and awful, let's all criticize it," I don't think she would have any problem simply coming out and saying that. Why would she spend weeks and weeks writing an alternate take on the subject matter when it would be so much simpler to make the point in a regular LJ post? (As many other people have done to many other stories by many authors in SGA fandom, in their own personal journals and in communities like thecuttingboard.)

I think if you can't see anything in Helen's story but an insult to Xanthe or BDSM, you are missing its point entirely. It is not about how terrible Xanthe's story is, or lifestyle BDSM. It is about how terrible *traditional gender roles* are, and it uses an imaginary universe where *institutionalized* BDSM is a part of *society* as a metaphor for the traditional gender roles that are institutionalized as part of our society.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Interesting, since Res wrote this post to claim that it isn't an allegory about feminism at all, but "a brand-new (and unfair) thing to comment on/criticize a piece of literature by writing another piece of literature in response to it".

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Essentially it sounds like you're saying: It's impossible to criticize a story in the author's own LJ, because the author will just delete the comment; and it's rude/tactless to criticize a story in the comments to another person's story.

I'd have to disagree with that two ways: First, I don't know what Xanthe would do, but I've certainly never deleted a critical comment. (I've never deleted anything but spams demanding that I go see "The Passion of the Christ.")

Second, I don't see anything wrong with criticizing a story in the comments on someone else's LJ. (Or anywhere else, for that matter.)

[september1967.livejournal.com]

It has to do with what people kept telling me was the point of the story. Whenever I said that wasn't what I read, they kept reassuring me differently. And now I'm being told that my responses are incorrect and unfactual because I disagree with the initial response.

I didn't understand why people thought it funny, even as an allegory for feminism, it didn't seem funny. Then there were people saying how they disliked Xanthe's story. That isn't criticizing the story, that is dissing another story and doing it in such a way as if saying this is legitimate to do. I disagree that it is appropriate in one person's story's comment to dis another person's story in that first person's comments.

You said the story was based on the history of one writer criticizing another writer in a story they wrote. I disagee. I still don't know if that is really what Helen meant since that really wasn't what I initially read. If I had known the whole point of Helen's story was to criticize or dis Xanthe's story, I would never had read it. Or at the least disagreed with her story as a means to attack Xanthe or her story.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Then there were people saying how they disliked Xanthe's story. That isn't criticizing the story, that is dissing another story

This is what I disagree with. First I don't get your distinction between criticizing and dissing, and second, I don't see any problem with saying, "I didn't like that story," no matter where you say it.

Saying, "The author is a no-talent hack" -- that I would have a problem with.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

When you are criticising a story you are trying to make a point in order for the writer to change or understand your pov. Dissing is where you are doing more than just saying you dislike something, and many in fact were saying in the comments how much more than disliking Xanthe. Would you have appreciated someone saying that about you or your stories in someone else's stories? And if you would have, I'm happy for you, but I still wouldn't have wanted to read that.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a writer:

It's OK with me if people like what they like and dislike what they dislike.

It's OK with me if they say so -- to my face, behind my back, wherever they like.

If I write something, and it's really important to me that nobody ever say anything bad about it, I won't post it.

The other option is to hold out for a world where people are allowed to say good things about my stories, but not allowed to say bad things about them. If I did that, I'd be doomed to disappointment.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

There was more than dislike that was being said. I could care less how much people dislike other peoples stories but the way it was said it was more than that and really ticked me off. Really made me uncomfortable and made me wish I'd never read the story, made me question the point of the story, the legitimacy of the story, whether it was appropriate to write the story to allow others to describe how much they didn't like another story and then couch it with legitimate criticism and the word homage.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

So what you're saying is that, because some people chose to comment negatively on Xanthe's stories in the comments to Helen's, you believe that Helen wrote this story to 1) make Xanthe's look bad, and 2) encourage other people to negatively compare Xanthe's stories to hers in the comments to Helen's stories? That it's all a big, complicated hate-in on Xanthe and her stories? And because of that, you can't appreciate Helen's story as it stands or see any of the potential themes others are bringing up in the story discussions? All you can see is one big bash-fest?

No, hon, I promise you, this story may be any number of things, but it isn't a calculated, organized whack at Xanthe. Not that I know Helen well, and not that I haven't seen stories parodied in the past, but this thing, no. It's quite possible that she read Xanthe's story and thought, hmmm, I see inherent problems in a world where D/s is institutionalized and highly structured, and those problems might run along these lines...and then wanted to run with it, point those problems out, but I don't see her saying, hmmm, this story sucked, so I'm going to invest hours and days and weeks in writing a scathing parody that will encourage people to flock to my journal and hate her stories along with me. No, no, no.

One can respond to, be inspired by, any number of things, even negatively, and not be hating on them. If that's what you're thinking, and that's what's interfering with your enjoyment or understanding of the story, then try letting go of that. Your loyalty to Xanthe and her stories is sweet, and your interest and investment in a proper depiction of D/s lifestyles is understandable, but if your contribution to every conversation about the story is "I can't see any of what you're saying because all I can see is that she meant to hurt Xanthe with this story and that's bad", then people aren't going to value your contributions to the discussion. If you can't get beyond your prejudices against the story, you have nothing to add to analytical discussion, much like someone who hates slash shouldn't join a discussion of a John/Rodney story and state that she can't see anything good about it because it's slash, and she hates slash.

Maybe you could write a review of your own, in your own journal, stating what you believe to be true about the story, and let people respond to your assertions there? Because it doesn't seem like anyone wants to engage at the level of "this was deliberately hurtful to Xanthe" when they don't believe that and are enjoying discussing deeper issues in Helen's story. You're going to end up at cross-purposes with everyone who doesn't think that's true, every time.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

All I can say is I hope you're right, but have you wondered what Xanthe thinks of all this? Have you even wondered if there might be, oh I don't know, some concern to legitimate authorial reaction? Or is it all just meant to be OK as long as its disclaimed as an unauthorized homage?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I can almost guarantee that Helen did not set this all up as a Machiavellian slap at Xanthe--I say 'almost' because I don't actually know what's in Helen's head; no one but Helen does, obviously. But to put this kind of work into something thats sole purpose is to hurt is a hallmark of a personality type that just isn't Helen's; I feel confident in saying this after having seen how she's comported herself through a number of fandoms for a number of years. Really, that isn't what it's about, and I think you'll feel better about the whole thing if you let that idea go.

As to what Xanthe feels, I'd say that she appears to me to be an experienced writer who's developed the kind of skin one needs if one is going to put oneself out there on the net, over and over. More specifically, she made a comment on the comm, today (which she then deleted, not having realized that authors are encouraged not to comment in discussion of their stories) where she called Helen's homage 'flattering', said she had no problem with others playing in her universes since that's what she herself does when writing fanfic, and is surprised that others think Helen may have meant 'homage' in an ironic way. She doesn't appear to have a problem with it, and I believe she probably wouldn't want you to be as distressed about it as you are.

As far as the reaction of the original author to an homage goes, there was a lot of discussion of this type of thing, of remixing or playing in someone else's fictional uni without prior consent, when the whole Flashfic comm controversy happened, several weeks ago. It seems that some see no problem with co-opting other's unis without permission while others think it's a not done thing. It seems to be a very individual thing, and if Xanthe has written a journal entry decrying Helen's use of her stories as inspiration and her fen want to back her up on that, then more power to them. She doesn't seem to have done that, though, or seem to mind the homage, so I don't know that it's either necessary or appropriate to jump to her defense. Maybe it's something you should discuss with her?

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I think the person who should have talked to Xanthe chose not to. Why should Xanthe say anything to her or respond in any way? Would or should Helen apologize if Xanthe said she was hurt or upset or pissed off?

[xanthelj.livejournal.com]

This was that portion of my actual post - you left off the bit at the end which changes the meaning somewhat:

"I do think it's surprising that so many people commenting on her fic have been under the impression that she herself was being ironic when she called it a "homage" but that's something only she can clear up and she's chosen not to do so thus far. Obviously it would come over as misleading to anyone who enjoyed the originals if they didn't realise her intention was ironic though."

End of quote.

All this discussion on the topic is entirely pointless until such time as Helen clarifies her intent. In the absence of such clarification I will draw my own conclusions.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Whats funny is that I actually liked the story at first, but reading other people's takes on it has turned me completely off it.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Then maybe you could go back to that initial reaction and disregard the insinuations of those who are not Helen and are not necessarily in the know at all about why the story was written? The reactions are not the story, and the commenters are not Helen. It'd be a shame for you to continue to be so distressed unnecessarily.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I have had so many different things hurled at me just because I responded differently to the story than others that its way beyond disregard. Believe me, I won't be ashamed, but I will wonder at how all this could have been avoided if someone had just wrote more than one line of notes before posting a story that was this controversial at the least.