Entry tags:
Comments on LJ events you're already bored with
1. Love memes (like the one going on at
queenofthorns right now) are much easier these days now that LJ introduced its little thumbtack icon! You can track the entire discussion (to see if anyone you know comments asking for love), or you can track your anonymous comment (so you can see if the person replies to it). It's very cool.
2. Some of the discussion on
helenish's Take Clothes Off As Directed seems to be implying that it's a brand-new (and unfair) thing to comment on/criticize a piece of literature by writing another piece of literature in response to it.
But this sort of conversation between two literary works is at least as old as when Christopher Marlowe wrote The Passionate Shepherd to His Love ("Come live with me and be my love/And we will all the pleasures prove") and Sir Walter Raleigh replied with The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd ("If all the world and love were young/And truth on every shepherd's tongue ...").
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
2. Some of the discussion on
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
But this sort of conversation between two literary works is at least as old as when Christopher Marlowe wrote The Passionate Shepherd to His Love ("Come live with me and be my love/And we will all the pleasures prove") and Sir Walter Raleigh replied with The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd ("If all the world and love were young/And truth on every shepherd's tongue ...").
no subject
no subject
no subject
no subject
I'm definatly not in favour of ouright badmouthing of another person, but it appears not to be that, but discussion going on in that lj.
no subject
no subject
Out of curiosity, considering that Xanthe's stories are not on lj or a discussion facilitating format (ha, unless I am wrong and can only find the website version) what would you consider the proper place to have such a discussion?
And following on that, Xanthe's story and Helen's story have very different agendas. As Xanthe says in her disclaimer "The alternate universe depicted is intended to be hot and fun - it's not a serious attempt to analyse how such a society would really work." Helen's story on the other hand is definatly about how the society works, and most of the critique of Xanthe's work I've noticed in Helen's lj has been about the two seperate perspectives of the respective fanfics, and which worked better for the critic. So where would you see the proper place of critique regarding the divergence of agenda/perspective (whatever you want to call this type of discussion)?
And why are you finding so much of this criticism to be illegitimate? Is it because of where it is? I am honestly curious.
no subject
As for Xanthe's stories- they are on LJ.
no subject
no subject
And I have an issue with someone saying that the stories are written about the same thing because many others keep telling me how very different they are and how Helen's story is an allegory about feminism. The more I read, I am having difficulty seeing Helen's story as more as a dropping off point to rant about another story in her comments.
no subject
They both include the concept of a BDSM universe, but one is a romantic porno fantasy and one is a feminist allegory. How is this such a difficult concept?
It's like how "Stargate SG1" and "JAG" are both about military officers doing their jobs, but one is a sci-fi adventure and one is a legal procedural show. Things can have topics in common and still be quite different.
The more I read, I am having difficulty seeing Helen's story as more as a dropping off point to rant about another story in her comments.
If Helen's point was, "I think Xanthe's story is terrible and awful, let's all criticize it," I don't think she would have any problem simply coming out and saying that. Why would she spend weeks and weeks writing an alternate take on the subject matter when it would be so much simpler to make the point in a regular LJ post? (As many other people have done to many other stories by many authors in SGA fandom, in their own personal journals and in communities like thecuttingboard.)
I think if you can't see anything in Helen's story but an insult to Xanthe or BDSM, you are missing its point entirely. It is not about how terrible Xanthe's story is, or lifestyle BDSM. It is about how terrible *traditional gender roles* are, and it uses an imaginary universe where *institutionalized* BDSM is a part of *society* as a metaphor for the traditional gender roles that are institutionalized as part of our society.
no subject
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
I'd have to disagree with that two ways: First, I don't know what Xanthe would do, but I've certainly never deleted a critical comment. (I've never deleted anything but spams demanding that I go see "The Passion of the Christ.")
Second, I don't see anything wrong with criticizing a story in the comments on someone else's LJ. (Or anywhere else, for that matter.)
no subject
I didn't understand why people thought it funny, even as an allegory for feminism, it didn't seem funny. Then there were people saying how they disliked Xanthe's story. That isn't criticizing the story, that is dissing another story and doing it in such a way as if saying this is legitimate to do. I disagree that it is appropriate in one person's story's comment to dis another person's story in that first person's comments.
You said the story was based on the history of one writer criticizing another writer in a story they wrote. I disagee. I still don't know if that is really what Helen meant since that really wasn't what I initially read. If I had known the whole point of Helen's story was to criticize or dis Xanthe's story, I would never had read it. Or at the least disagreed with her story as a means to attack Xanthe or her story.
no subject
This is what I disagree with. First I don't get your distinction between criticizing and dissing, and second, I don't see any problem with saying, "I didn't like that story," no matter where you say it.
Saying, "The author is a no-talent hack" -- that I would have a problem with.
no subject
no subject
It's OK with me if people like what they like and dislike what they dislike.
It's OK with me if they say so -- to my face, behind my back, wherever they like.
If I write something, and it's really important to me that nobody ever say anything bad about it, I won't post it.
The other option is to hold out for a world where people are allowed to say good things about my stories, but not allowed to say bad things about them. If I did that, I'd be doomed to disappointment.
no subject
no subject
No, hon, I promise you, this story may be any number of things, but it isn't a calculated, organized whack at Xanthe. Not that I know Helen well, and not that I haven't seen stories parodied in the past, but this thing, no. It's quite possible that she read Xanthe's story and thought, hmmm, I see inherent problems in a world where D/s is institutionalized and highly structured, and those problems might run along these lines...and then wanted to run with it, point those problems out, but I don't see her saying, hmmm, this story sucked, so I'm going to invest hours and days and weeks in writing a scathing parody that will encourage people to flock to my journal and hate her stories along with me. No, no, no.
One can respond to, be inspired by, any number of things, even negatively, and not be hating on them. If that's what you're thinking, and that's what's interfering with your enjoyment or understanding of the story, then try letting go of that. Your loyalty to Xanthe and her stories is sweet, and your interest and investment in a proper depiction of D/s lifestyles is understandable, but if your contribution to every conversation about the story is "I can't see any of what you're saying because all I can see is that she meant to hurt Xanthe with this story and that's bad", then people aren't going to value your contributions to the discussion. If you can't get beyond your prejudices against the story, you have nothing to add to analytical discussion, much like someone who hates slash shouldn't join a discussion of a John/Rodney story and state that she can't see anything good about it because it's slash, and she hates slash.
Maybe you could write a review of your own, in your own journal, stating what you believe to be true about the story, and let people respond to your assertions there? Because it doesn't seem like anyone wants to engage at the level of "this was deliberately hurtful to Xanthe" when they don't believe that and are enjoying discussing deeper issues in Helen's story. You're going to end up at cross-purposes with everyone who doesn't think that's true, every time.
no subject
no subject
As to what Xanthe feels, I'd say that she appears to me to be an experienced writer who's developed the kind of skin one needs if one is going to put oneself out there on the net, over and over. More specifically, she made a comment on the comm, today (which she then deleted, not having realized that authors are encouraged not to comment in discussion of their stories) where she called Helen's homage 'flattering', said she had no problem with others playing in her universes since that's what she herself does when writing fanfic, and is surprised that others think Helen may have meant 'homage' in an ironic way. She doesn't appear to have a problem with it, and I believe she probably wouldn't want you to be as distressed about it as you are.
As far as the reaction of the original author to an homage goes, there was a lot of discussion of this type of thing, of remixing or playing in someone else's fictional uni without prior consent, when the whole Flashfic comm controversy happened, several weeks ago. It seems that some see no problem with co-opting other's unis without permission while others think it's a not done thing. It seems to be a very individual thing, and if Xanthe has written a journal entry decrying Helen's use of her stories as inspiration and her fen want to back her up on that, then more power to them. She doesn't seem to have done that, though, or seem to mind the homage, so I don't know that it's either necessary or appropriate to jump to her defense. Maybe it's something you should discuss with her?
no subject
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
no subject
"I do think it's surprising that so many people commenting on her fic have been under the impression that she herself was being ironic when she called it a "homage" but that's something only she can clear up and she's chosen not to do so thus far. Obviously it would come over as misleading to anyone who enjoyed the originals if they didn't realise her intention was ironic though."
End of quote.
All this discussion on the topic is entirely pointless until such time as Helen clarifies her intent. In the absence of such clarification I will draw my own conclusions.
(no subject)
no subject
no subject
no subject
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)