Comments on LJ events you're already bored with

[resonant]

1. Love memes (like the one going on at queenofthorns right now) are much easier these days now that LJ introduced its little thumbtack icon! You can track the entire discussion (to see if anyone you know comments asking for love), or you can track your anonymous comment (so you can see if the person replies to it). It's very cool.

2. Some of the discussion on helenish's Take Clothes Off As Directed seems to be implying that it's a brand-new (and unfair) thing to comment on/criticize a piece of literature by writing another piece of literature in response to it.

But this sort of conversation between two literary works is at least as old as when Christopher Marlowe wrote The Passionate Shepherd to His Love ("Come live with me and be my love/And we will all the pleasures prove") and Sir Walter Raleigh replied with The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd ("If all the world and love were young/And truth on every shepherd's tongue ...").

Comments

[september1967.livejournal.com]

In an appropriate place, yes. Put it in your lj, put it in a community on discussing such topics.

And I have an issue with someone saying that the stories are written about the same thing because many others keep telling me how very different they are and how Helen's story is an allegory about feminism. The more I read, I am having difficulty seeing Helen's story as more as a dropping off point to rant about another story in her comments.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

They both include the concept of a BDSM universe, but one is a romantic porno fantasy and one is a feminist allegory. How is this such a difficult concept?

It's like how "Stargate SG1" and "JAG" are both about military officers doing their jobs, but one is a sci-fi adventure and one is a legal procedural show. Things can have topics in common and still be quite different.

The more I read, I am having difficulty seeing Helen's story as more as a dropping off point to rant about another story in her comments.

If Helen's point was, "I think Xanthe's story is terrible and awful, let's all criticize it," I don't think she would have any problem simply coming out and saying that. Why would she spend weeks and weeks writing an alternate take on the subject matter when it would be so much simpler to make the point in a regular LJ post? (As many other people have done to many other stories by many authors in SGA fandom, in their own personal journals and in communities like thecuttingboard.)

I think if you can't see anything in Helen's story but an insult to Xanthe or BDSM, you are missing its point entirely. It is not about how terrible Xanthe's story is, or lifestyle BDSM. It is about how terrible *traditional gender roles* are, and it uses an imaginary universe where *institutionalized* BDSM is a part of *society* as a metaphor for the traditional gender roles that are institutionalized as part of our society.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Interesting, since Res wrote this post to claim that it isn't an allegory about feminism at all, but "a brand-new (and unfair) thing to comment on/criticize a piece of literature by writing another piece of literature in response to it".

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Res wrote this post to claim that it isn't an allegory about feminism at all

........ What? No she didn't.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Res goes on to say that it is a history of writers writing stories to criticize another writer's work. That doesn't tell me the story is an allegory of feminism.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

You are seriously kidding me.

Why can't it be both? A story that is a response to Xanthe's story AND a feminist allegory.

I refer to you the novel "The Wind Done Gone," which is a response to "Gone with the Wind" AND an indictment of racism. Or the short story "Snow, Glass, Apples" which is a response to the story "Snow White" AND a vampire horror tale. Or the novel "The Red Tent" which is a response to the Bible AND a feminist tale.

Or Xanthe's story "Coming Home," which is a response to "Stargate Atlantis" AND a pornographic romance.

Stories can be more than one thing. I can't believe I even have to explain this. Seriously. Just because Res points out that stories can be used to respond to other stories doesn't mean she's "claiming it's not a feminist allegory." That is absolutely not what she's doing.

Now, if you'd like to go back and respond to the points *I* made in my first response to you, I would love to hear you respond to what *I* actually said instead of what you incorrectly assumed that Res meant in her post.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I have been told how this story was all about the allegory and NOT criticism about Xanthe's story because of the use of the word homage. I don't know if Helen was intending that. You tell me it is both. Well, that I can believe.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

I said "a response to Xanthe's story"-- I never said criticism. Please. Respond to what I actually say, not what you think I said.

(Also, you seem to want everyone in this debate who disagrees with you to have the same opinion and back each other up, but I am not Res, she is not me, and neither of us is any of the "other people," you have been talking to. So really, I would prefer to only have the discussion that you and I are having, and not the discussion you've been having with other people. Since I'm not them. And I might not agree with them.)

What can we agree on? Helen's story is obviously a response to Xanthe's. Is it a critical response? Perhaps. I mean, many people argue that slash itself began as a response to mass media's refusal to give us strong female characters and/or canon gay characters. Is that a "critical" response in the sense that you mean it? I don't think so.

Now, whether or not it's a critical response-- is it a *malicious* critical response? It doesn't have to be. One can criticize the flaws in a work without condemning everything about it. And again, I have to ask, why would anyone go to the trouble when it would be so much simpler to just... criticise the story in a non-fictional format?

And if it was meant as a critical response to Xanthe's story, why change the "rules?" That's cheating, really-- to say "Well, if Xanthe's story was entirely different, here's what I think would be wrong with it."

What Helen's story is saying to me is-- "What if there was a universe *similar* to Xanthe's, except with some very important changes-- like there's no such thing as switches or non-aligned people, and there's no spiritual component to D/s at all, and the MAJOR change is that society uses the top/sub divide as an excuse for terrible institutionalized discrimination against subs, and this discrimination damages John emotionally and sexually, and so it's a bad thing for him."

Which to me is totally different than saying, "Look, here's a universe just like Xanthe's, and here's how it's terrible."

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, I never saw it as an allegory, a response critical or other to Xanthe's story, nor as an homage. When people kept on saying that it was an allegory, that's when I was curious as to why they said that.

Debating semantics will not get us anywhere.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, I never saw it as an allegory, a response critical or other to Xanthe's story, nor as an homage. When people kept on saying that it was an allegory, that's when I was curious as to why they said that.

You keep saying things that make no sense at all.

I don't understand how you could not see Helen's story as an allegory. How completely ignorant of history would you have to be in order to not see any connection between society's treatment of subs in Helen's story and society's treatment of women in America?

And I don't understand how you could not see it as a response to Xanthe's story. Did you just think it was a completely random coincidence, that Helen came up with the idea of a BDSM universe independently? Of course it was a response.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Now my response is supposed to be like everyone else's. If Helen had a point she wanted to make, then I missed it. Too bad.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Now my response is supposed to be like everyone else's.

No, I didn't say that.

I'm just trying to get a reaction from you that makes some sense.

Perhaps you totally missed the level of Helen's story that was a metaphor for women's struggles for equality. Fine. It wasn't that subtle, but fine.

But how can you say that you didn't think that Helen's story was "a response critical or other to Xanthe's story" ? When she referred to Xanthe's story specifically in her author's notes?

I mean that's like me writing a Stargate Atlantis fanfiction and you not thinking that it is a response to Stargate Atlantis. Of course it is. How could it be anything else?

I think it really is obvious that you missed the point of Helen's story by about a million miles. At this point, if I were you, I'd just quit trying to talk about it, since you admittedly missed the point and do not understand what it is or what it's supposed to be at all.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Asking questions is a legitimate way of learning something. Trying to tell someone that their response of a story is incorrect is inappropriate. And I refuse to quit because you told me to.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Trying to tell someone that their response of a story is incorrect is inappropriate.

Are you joking?

Look, if I write a piece of SGA fanfic and you tell me it's not a response to Stargate Atlantis, that is an incorrect statement. How is it inappropriate to tell you that you have made a factually incorrect statement, like "Helen's story is not a response to Xanthe's?" That's not a debatable opinion, it's just... completely wrong.

And I refuse to quit because you told me to.

Not because I told you to. Because (1) you said yourself that you missed the point of Helen's story, and (2) you keep making factually incorrect statements about it. Not just different opinions; *factually incorrect statements*, like 2+2=5.

[hypothalamus.livejournal.com]

Hi, um, I'm really not meaning to interrupt, and I do apologize, but-- I actually didn't see the feminist allegory inherent in Helen's story when I first read it. Or rather, I didn't think that up myself. And I'm an enthusiastic student of American history-- I think that I just suspended my disbelief so totally, or took the story entirely at face value, or got caught up in the story itself, but that didn't occur to me while I was reading.

And once I saw it in the comments I felt sort of silly for not noticing before, because it makes perfect sense and Helen did a beautiful job with it. I suppose my only real point here is that not seeing that connection immediately doesn't have to be a result of ignorance, or of Helen's doing a poor job with it, but rather of the reader simply approaching the story from a different perspective and initially missing that layer.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

[wicked-socks.livejournal.com]

I suppose my only real point here is that not seeing that connection immediately doesn't have to be a result of ignorance, or of Helen's doing a poor job with it, but rather of the reader simply approaching the story from a different perspective and initially missing that layer.

That's true, but initially missing something, or never ever seeing it even after it's pointed out is a little different. I didn't realize that Narnia was a Christian allegory the first time I read it, but once I heard the idea, and knew enough about Narnia and Christianity, the similaries were, well, exceedingly diffcult to miss.

[hypothalamus.livejournal.com]

Oh, of course! I for sure wasn't saying otherwise. Just that, failing to see it initially doesn't make me a dumbass-- or I hope it doesn't! *g*

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Yes, but what September said to me was, "I never saw it as an allegory," and that even after people pointed it out to her, that she was "curious as to why they would say that." I took that (and other statements she made in this discussion) to mean that she *still* doesn't think it is a feminist allegory.

Like wicked-socks says, that's kind of hard to understand, since the parallels are so numerous and so clear.

[liviapenn.livejournal.com]

Er, clear *after the fact*, that is.

[cjk1701.livejournal.com]

Helen's been known to write extensive stories as well as extensive discussions of points she agrees and disagrees with. I don't think she would write a story only to point out how some other story sucks. It seems more likely to me that she read Xanthe's story and it gave her ideas about how such a BDSM universe would work, and how it realates to ours. Obviously I'm not her, but if I hated a story's guts I wouldn't bother writing my statement as an elaborate fic that took a while to write, but rather a rant or an essay. You only write about things that are interesting to you, after all, and not about things you can't stand.

I also honestly believe that even if Helen hadn't put in the remark about the homage to Xanthe, people would have commented on the common theme and compared the two stories/universes. Obviously I'm not her so I don't know if the homage was meant seriously or ironically, but I'm sure that the same discussions in her LJ would have appeared even without that remark.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

If I had known it was an ironic 'homage', I wouldn't have read it, or at least read it with a grain of salt.

[cjk1701.livejournal.com]

Why not?

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Are you really concerned why I enjoy a story or not?

[cjk1701.livejournal.com]

No. I'm interesetd in why anyone would disregard an entire subgenre of fiction. Cleolinda's movies in fiteen minues are ironic homages, as well as, in the really broad sense, any intentionally funny fanfiction.