Comments on LJ events you're already bored with

[resonant]

1. Love memes (like the one going on at queenofthorns right now) are much easier these days now that LJ introduced its little thumbtack icon! You can track the entire discussion (to see if anyone you know comments asking for love), or you can track your anonymous comment (so you can see if the person replies to it). It's very cool.

2. Some of the discussion on helenish's Take Clothes Off As Directed seems to be implying that it's a brand-new (and unfair) thing to comment on/criticize a piece of literature by writing another piece of literature in response to it.

But this sort of conversation between two literary works is at least as old as when Christopher Marlowe wrote The Passionate Shepherd to His Love ("Come live with me and be my love/And we will all the pleasures prove") and Sir Walter Raleigh replied with The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd ("If all the world and love were young/And truth on every shepherd's tongue ...").

Comments

[september1967.livejournal.com]

All I can say is I hope you're right, but have you wondered what Xanthe thinks of all this? Have you even wondered if there might be, oh I don't know, some concern to legitimate authorial reaction? Or is it all just meant to be OK as long as its disclaimed as an unauthorized homage?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I can almost guarantee that Helen did not set this all up as a Machiavellian slap at Xanthe--I say 'almost' because I don't actually know what's in Helen's head; no one but Helen does, obviously. But to put this kind of work into something thats sole purpose is to hurt is a hallmark of a personality type that just isn't Helen's; I feel confident in saying this after having seen how she's comported herself through a number of fandoms for a number of years. Really, that isn't what it's about, and I think you'll feel better about the whole thing if you let that idea go.

As to what Xanthe feels, I'd say that she appears to me to be an experienced writer who's developed the kind of skin one needs if one is going to put oneself out there on the net, over and over. More specifically, she made a comment on the comm, today (which she then deleted, not having realized that authors are encouraged not to comment in discussion of their stories) where she called Helen's homage 'flattering', said she had no problem with others playing in her universes since that's what she herself does when writing fanfic, and is surprised that others think Helen may have meant 'homage' in an ironic way. She doesn't appear to have a problem with it, and I believe she probably wouldn't want you to be as distressed about it as you are.

As far as the reaction of the original author to an homage goes, there was a lot of discussion of this type of thing, of remixing or playing in someone else's fictional uni without prior consent, when the whole Flashfic comm controversy happened, several weeks ago. It seems that some see no problem with co-opting other's unis without permission while others think it's a not done thing. It seems to be a very individual thing, and if Xanthe has written a journal entry decrying Helen's use of her stories as inspiration and her fen want to back her up on that, then more power to them. She doesn't seem to have done that, though, or seem to mind the homage, so I don't know that it's either necessary or appropriate to jump to her defense. Maybe it's something you should discuss with her?

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I think the person who should have talked to Xanthe chose not to. Why should Xanthe say anything to her or respond in any way? Would or should Helen apologize if Xanthe said she was hurt or upset or pissed off?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

What happens between Helen and Xanthe is entirely between them. I was saying that maybe if you talked to Xanthe about whether or not Helen's references to her stories bothered her, it would help to inform your decision about whether or not it should bother you, since Xanthe's feelings seem to be your primary concern.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Maybe I have. I just am wondering about the next succor that this happens to because you do realize this opens the flood gates for anyone taking another peron's story without permission. And now it is legitimate by the one line disclaimer of 'unauthorized homage.'

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Well, actually, if there are floodgates to be opened, the Flashfic comm controversy would probably have done it, already. Will others write unauthorized homages or play in other people's unis without permission because of the Flashfic discussions, or because Helen wrote this story? Possibly. Is that a terrible thing? Not necessarily. Case by case, some may be unhappy about it and some may be flattered, as Xanthe was. That's true of public crit, too--some are pleased by the attention and some are mortified. Doesn't mean it won't happen, or shouldn't happen, or isn't already happening. Whether people see it as legitimate or not is an individual call. The 'rules' of fandom are fluid and change constantly, when they're recognized at all. If you want to be the voice of "hands off", be prepared for people to not agree with you, especially when you're moving in fannish circles where public analysis of stories is already happening. That attitude of openness may extend to homages and borrowing, as well.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm glad I don't write in fandom anymore. I really must go back to being a lurker.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

It's important to know one's own boundaries. If the possibility of someone playing with your universe or publicly discussing your story would be distressing to you and you know that, then it's good to protect yourself from that by not posting stories. It's really all that one can do. Growing a thick enough skin to not mind those things takes time and can be painful. If that's not for you, then it's much better that you don't subject yourself to it (which applies pretty much to any endeavors in any other area of life, too.)

[september1967.livejournal.com]

It's amazing how much a lurker is subjected to, willing or otherwise. If I didn't have a thick skin just to comment in any of these boards, do you think I would have?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

You're the only one who knows what you can tolerate, be it disagreement in discussion or criticism of a story (which for many aren't the same kind of painful.) You should do what you feel good about doing.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Yes, being condescended to is something I have a thick skin for too.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

You feel you're being condescended to?

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Yes I think I have been quite a number of times today.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I wouldn't spend this much time talking to you if my intent were to insult or belittle you, I promise. I'm trying to reach some areas of shared understanding, here, because I think I know where you're coming from but it hasn't always been easy for me to tell and I don't want to assume wrong. And you've felt misunderstood and maybe even disrespected throughout these discussions, and I'd like to help with that. But, again, I'm just one person expressing her opinions. I'm really not trying to belittle you.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I appreciate the discussion. I wouldn't respond to you if I didn't get something from it.

[xanthelj.livejournal.com]

This was that portion of my actual post - you left off the bit at the end which changes the meaning somewhat:

"I do think it's surprising that so many people commenting on her fic have been under the impression that she herself was being ironic when she called it a "homage" but that's something only she can clear up and she's chosen not to do so thus far. Obviously it would come over as misleading to anyone who enjoyed the originals if they didn't realise her intention was ironic though."

End of quote.

All this discussion on the topic is entirely pointless until such time as Helen clarifies her intent. In the absence of such clarification I will draw my own conclusions.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Did I misunderstand you? If I did, I'm terribly sorry--it seemed to me that you were fine with it, saying that it was flattering and all. Is that not the case? I didn't mean to misrepresent you. September was so upset on your behalf, and what I'd seen you say suggested to me that she didn't need to be, that you were fine. I'm sorry if that's not so.