Comments on LJ events you're already bored with

[resonant]

1. Love memes (like the one going on at queenofthorns right now) are much easier these days now that LJ introduced its little thumbtack icon! You can track the entire discussion (to see if anyone you know comments asking for love), or you can track your anonymous comment (so you can see if the person replies to it). It's very cool.

2. Some of the discussion on helenish's Take Clothes Off As Directed seems to be implying that it's a brand-new (and unfair) thing to comment on/criticize a piece of literature by writing another piece of literature in response to it.

But this sort of conversation between two literary works is at least as old as when Christopher Marlowe wrote The Passionate Shepherd to His Love ("Come live with me and be my love/And we will all the pleasures prove") and Sir Walter Raleigh replied with The Nymph's Reply to the Shepherd ("If all the world and love were young/And truth on every shepherd's tongue ...").

Comments

[september1967.livejournal.com]

When you are criticising a story you are trying to make a point in order for the writer to change or understand your pov. Dissing is where you are doing more than just saying you dislike something, and many in fact were saying in the comments how much more than disliking Xanthe. Would you have appreciated someone saying that about you or your stories in someone else's stories? And if you would have, I'm happy for you, but I still wouldn't have wanted to read that.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a writer:

It's OK with me if people like what they like and dislike what they dislike.

It's OK with me if they say so -- to my face, behind my back, wherever they like.

If I write something, and it's really important to me that nobody ever say anything bad about it, I won't post it.

The other option is to hold out for a world where people are allowed to say good things about my stories, but not allowed to say bad things about them. If I did that, I'd be doomed to disappointment.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

There was more than dislike that was being said. I could care less how much people dislike other peoples stories but the way it was said it was more than that and really ticked me off. Really made me uncomfortable and made me wish I'd never read the story, made me question the point of the story, the legitimacy of the story, whether it was appropriate to write the story to allow others to describe how much they didn't like another story and then couch it with legitimate criticism and the word homage.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

So what you're saying is that, because some people chose to comment negatively on Xanthe's stories in the comments to Helen's, you believe that Helen wrote this story to 1) make Xanthe's look bad, and 2) encourage other people to negatively compare Xanthe's stories to hers in the comments to Helen's stories? That it's all a big, complicated hate-in on Xanthe and her stories? And because of that, you can't appreciate Helen's story as it stands or see any of the potential themes others are bringing up in the story discussions? All you can see is one big bash-fest?

No, hon, I promise you, this story may be any number of things, but it isn't a calculated, organized whack at Xanthe. Not that I know Helen well, and not that I haven't seen stories parodied in the past, but this thing, no. It's quite possible that she read Xanthe's story and thought, hmmm, I see inherent problems in a world where D/s is institutionalized and highly structured, and those problems might run along these lines...and then wanted to run with it, point those problems out, but I don't see her saying, hmmm, this story sucked, so I'm going to invest hours and days and weeks in writing a scathing parody that will encourage people to flock to my journal and hate her stories along with me. No, no, no.

One can respond to, be inspired by, any number of things, even negatively, and not be hating on them. If that's what you're thinking, and that's what's interfering with your enjoyment or understanding of the story, then try letting go of that. Your loyalty to Xanthe and her stories is sweet, and your interest and investment in a proper depiction of D/s lifestyles is understandable, but if your contribution to every conversation about the story is "I can't see any of what you're saying because all I can see is that she meant to hurt Xanthe with this story and that's bad", then people aren't going to value your contributions to the discussion. If you can't get beyond your prejudices against the story, you have nothing to add to analytical discussion, much like someone who hates slash shouldn't join a discussion of a John/Rodney story and state that she can't see anything good about it because it's slash, and she hates slash.

Maybe you could write a review of your own, in your own journal, stating what you believe to be true about the story, and let people respond to your assertions there? Because it doesn't seem like anyone wants to engage at the level of "this was deliberately hurtful to Xanthe" when they don't believe that and are enjoying discussing deeper issues in Helen's story. You're going to end up at cross-purposes with everyone who doesn't think that's true, every time.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

All I can say is I hope you're right, but have you wondered what Xanthe thinks of all this? Have you even wondered if there might be, oh I don't know, some concern to legitimate authorial reaction? Or is it all just meant to be OK as long as its disclaimed as an unauthorized homage?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I can almost guarantee that Helen did not set this all up as a Machiavellian slap at Xanthe--I say 'almost' because I don't actually know what's in Helen's head; no one but Helen does, obviously. But to put this kind of work into something thats sole purpose is to hurt is a hallmark of a personality type that just isn't Helen's; I feel confident in saying this after having seen how she's comported herself through a number of fandoms for a number of years. Really, that isn't what it's about, and I think you'll feel better about the whole thing if you let that idea go.

As to what Xanthe feels, I'd say that she appears to me to be an experienced writer who's developed the kind of skin one needs if one is going to put oneself out there on the net, over and over. More specifically, she made a comment on the comm, today (which she then deleted, not having realized that authors are encouraged not to comment in discussion of their stories) where she called Helen's homage 'flattering', said she had no problem with others playing in her universes since that's what she herself does when writing fanfic, and is surprised that others think Helen may have meant 'homage' in an ironic way. She doesn't appear to have a problem with it, and I believe she probably wouldn't want you to be as distressed about it as you are.

As far as the reaction of the original author to an homage goes, there was a lot of discussion of this type of thing, of remixing or playing in someone else's fictional uni without prior consent, when the whole Flashfic comm controversy happened, several weeks ago. It seems that some see no problem with co-opting other's unis without permission while others think it's a not done thing. It seems to be a very individual thing, and if Xanthe has written a journal entry decrying Helen's use of her stories as inspiration and her fen want to back her up on that, then more power to them. She doesn't seem to have done that, though, or seem to mind the homage, so I don't know that it's either necessary or appropriate to jump to her defense. Maybe it's something you should discuss with her?

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I think the person who should have talked to Xanthe chose not to. Why should Xanthe say anything to her or respond in any way? Would or should Helen apologize if Xanthe said she was hurt or upset or pissed off?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

What happens between Helen and Xanthe is entirely between them. I was saying that maybe if you talked to Xanthe about whether or not Helen's references to her stories bothered her, it would help to inform your decision about whether or not it should bother you, since Xanthe's feelings seem to be your primary concern.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Maybe I have. I just am wondering about the next succor that this happens to because you do realize this opens the flood gates for anyone taking another peron's story without permission. And now it is legitimate by the one line disclaimer of 'unauthorized homage.'

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Well, actually, if there are floodgates to be opened, the Flashfic comm controversy would probably have done it, already. Will others write unauthorized homages or play in other people's unis without permission because of the Flashfic discussions, or because Helen wrote this story? Possibly. Is that a terrible thing? Not necessarily. Case by case, some may be unhappy about it and some may be flattered, as Xanthe was. That's true of public crit, too--some are pleased by the attention and some are mortified. Doesn't mean it won't happen, or shouldn't happen, or isn't already happening. Whether people see it as legitimate or not is an individual call. The 'rules' of fandom are fluid and change constantly, when they're recognized at all. If you want to be the voice of "hands off", be prepared for people to not agree with you, especially when you're moving in fannish circles where public analysis of stories is already happening. That attitude of openness may extend to homages and borrowing, as well.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm glad I don't write in fandom anymore. I really must go back to being a lurker.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

It's important to know one's own boundaries. If the possibility of someone playing with your universe or publicly discussing your story would be distressing to you and you know that, then it's good to protect yourself from that by not posting stories. It's really all that one can do. Growing a thick enough skin to not mind those things takes time and can be painful. If that's not for you, then it's much better that you don't subject yourself to it (which applies pretty much to any endeavors in any other area of life, too.)

[september1967.livejournal.com]

It's amazing how much a lurker is subjected to, willing or otherwise. If I didn't have a thick skin just to comment in any of these boards, do you think I would have?

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

You're the only one who knows what you can tolerate, be it disagreement in discussion or criticism of a story (which for many aren't the same kind of painful.) You should do what you feel good about doing.

[xanthelj.livejournal.com]

This was that portion of my actual post - you left off the bit at the end which changes the meaning somewhat:

"I do think it's surprising that so many people commenting on her fic have been under the impression that she herself was being ironic when she called it a "homage" but that's something only she can clear up and she's chosen not to do so thus far. Obviously it would come over as misleading to anyone who enjoyed the originals if they didn't realise her intention was ironic though."

End of quote.

All this discussion on the topic is entirely pointless until such time as Helen clarifies her intent. In the absence of such clarification I will draw my own conclusions.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Did I misunderstand you? If I did, I'm terribly sorry--it seemed to me that you were fine with it, saying that it was flattering and all. Is that not the case? I didn't mean to misrepresent you. September was so upset on your behalf, and what I'd seen you say suggested to me that she didn't need to be, that you were fine. I'm sorry if that's not so.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Whats funny is that I actually liked the story at first, but reading other people's takes on it has turned me completely off it.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

Then maybe you could go back to that initial reaction and disregard the insinuations of those who are not Helen and are not necessarily in the know at all about why the story was written? The reactions are not the story, and the commenters are not Helen. It'd be a shame for you to continue to be so distressed unnecessarily.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I have had so many different things hurled at me just because I responded differently to the story than others that its way beyond disregard. Believe me, I won't be ashamed, but I will wonder at how all this could have been avoided if someone had just wrote more than one line of notes before posting a story that was this controversial at the least.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I've seen your discussions with others in a number of venues, and I have to say that I think part of the problem has been how you express yourself--often, what you say isn't very clear or seems to stray from the point. In this instance, I don't understand what things that have been 'hurled' at you have to do with disregarding the comments people made at the end of Helen's story (which you say is what changed your like to dislike), what you would be ashamed of and who should have written more notes--do you mean Helen? Are you saying that if Helen had written something more in her author notes, no one would have compared the stories? I don't think that's true. I don't think there's any way this series of stories wouldn't have engendered discussion, but a lot of us think that that discussion hasn't been a bad thing.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

I certainly would have known more about what I was going to read or might not have chosen to read it at all. I'm all for discussion, but I don't consider people saying how much they dislike Xanthe's stories discussion.

I have been called an idiot because I didn't see the allegory of feminism at first, though what really occured was I saw it when I read it but had real issues with putting a sub in that mindset. I am highly uncomfortable with saying that a sub is being abused or not given choices. Color me sensitive, but I was uncomfortable with that in the story. Not because I have I dislike dark scenarios in stories because of the potential of others to say 'well, see, that's what I've always thought D/s was all about.' I have come across people who say this all the time, in fact one of my closest friends always tells me she equates D/s as abusive.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

I don't think that Helen could have written anything in her author notes that would have prepared you for the negative responses of the readers in the following comments, comments that Helen was not responsible for. If you're saying that Helen should have said, "This is a slam against Xanthe and I invite you all to join me in slamming Xanthe in the comments to this story!" so you could have known that was what it was about and what you were going to see in the comments, then you're barking up entirely the wrong tree. That was NOT the intended purpose of this story. Commenters saying that they thought it was, if there were any, do not make that so. I don't know what you think Helen should have said that would have made everything okay for you if you're convinced that the purpose behind the story was nefarious to begin with. It wasn't, so there was no reason that she should have included disclaimers saying that it was, regardless of what the commenters had to say. Period.

In discussion, it would have made your stance much easier to understand if you had said, up front, that it wasn't that you couldn't see the discussed themes in the story but that you didn't want to because you couldn't get past your discomfort with certain elements in the story. You didn't like thinking the story was written to slam Xanthe, and you didn't like the portrayal of D/s in Helen's imaginary society. If you had said that instead of repeating "I don't see it" when you really meant "I don't care about those themes because these issues have invalidated the story for me", then people would have understood that. You didn't, and people were confused. Be upfront about your biases and express them as clearly as you can and people will know how to engage with you and not become so frustrated. You have valid and interesting points, but you weren't making them in a way anyone could understand, so people were becoming annoyed, and so were you.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Icarus described the story as a dark version of Xanthe's series. That might have made me stop or at least been aware of the direction if Helen put that in her notes.

[carolyn-claire.livejournal.com]

But that's only what Icarus said, not Helen. Just because that's what Icarus thinks doesn't make it true. That's what I'm trying to explain to you--what people said in the comments has nothing to do with Helen's intent. They don't know Helen's intent any more than anyone else does. Helen couldn't and didn't disclaim for reader reaction because she didn't know what that reaction was going to be. You aren't going to find a definitive explanation of what the story was about in the comments to the story, or in the Cuttingboard discussion, or in any other discussion on the net unless it comes directly from Helen. Remember how you said that people kept hurling contrary explanations at you, and you were becoming confused? That's because all a reader has to go on is her own reaction to the story, her own ideas about what it might be about, and those are all going to differ. Your own interpretation of the story's purpose as a slam against Xanthe will be as valid to you as my interpretation of the story as a feminist allegory is to me, but neither of us may be right when it comes to what was actually in Helen's head. Neither of us can know that, and none of the commenters can know that--no one can, unless Helen tells us, herself. Until that happens, it's all interpretation. We'll discuss whose interpretation we feel is the most likely to be true, and why, share our impressions, but NO ONE knows Helen meant but Helen. So disregard what Icarus had to say about the story, because it's only her interpretation, and don't expect Helen to disclaim for things that other people think. There's no reason for her to.

[september1967.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, the story was always about the relationship between Dom and sub to me. It only became more than that when others were telling me what I should think about the story.