Brit help needed

[resonant]

Needed: Some discussion on the personalities of British news/entertainment publications.

You know how the New York Times is a middle-aged, well-educated white guy in a suit who votes Democrat, and the New Yorker is the same guy only he's gay and probably Jewish, and the Wall Street Journal is the same guy only his suit's more expensive and he votes republican?

And Ladies Home Journal is a frumpy middle-aged woman with a teddy bear embroidered on her sweatshirt, sniffling over a sad story of a cute preschooler overcoming some tragic diseease?

Whereas Cosmopolitan is a woman poured into clothes seven years too young for her (which is fine, because she claims to be seven years younger than she is), cackling over the tale of some other woman who slept with her boss until he promoted her, then took dramatic and hideous revenge on his wife for calling her a bitch at the company Christmas party?

What I need is that kind of profile on some British publications. Newspapers, magazines. High-profile TV and radio shows would be fine, too.

(This is for a HP story, in case you're wondering.)

Comments

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

no help on the brit part, but your characterizations were beautiful! i might have to "borrow" them next time i try to explain to my kids how to pitch writing differently for varying audiences :-)

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

Here's where I go for that type of stuff: a href="http://www.redrosepress.co.uk/britain.htm">http://www.redrosepress.co.uk/britain.htm

Here's the page just for papers. http://www.redrosepress.co.uk/news.htm (http://www.redrosepress.co.uk/news.htm)

Have fun! The page on houses is funny, because apparently all houses in Britain have really tacky wallpaper in them.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

The thing that page doesn't give is information that I think is really essential for Americans trying to understand, though.

I mean, for example, just reading that page I would think that The Sun is rather like one of my local papers, the Tribune-Review, but it's not. It's more along the lines of a tabloid rag, unless I'm much mistaken.

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Just trying to help. I know nothing of any papers, and not just foreign ones. Oh well.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

nod.

I think a lot of the stuff at that site is really handy, but there tend to be assumptions about what people know - for example, I'm pretty sure that the British idea of "Conservative" is different from the American one, so I can't tell looking at that list what I'm really looking at, because I don't know what "Independent/Conservative" means to British folks. I mean, here there's religious conservatives and fiscal conservatives, and sometimes they're the same, and sometimes they're not, and so you have to be careful which you mean, etc. etc. - and I've no clue if that's also true in the UK.

It's one of those things that I wish was more spelled out on the site.

[mandragora1.livejournal.com]

for example, I'm pretty sure that the British idea of "Conservative" is different from the American one

This is true. Britain as a whole is much more left-wing than the US, so our Conservative (also called the Tory) Party is actually more the equivalent of the Democrats than the Republicans and our Labour Party (present government) wouldn't stand a hope in hell of ever being in power in the US as it's full of pinko-scummie-communist-types ;)

What the site does is actually link to which political party the newspaper in question is most associated with, hence if it's referred to as being 'Conservative' then it usually supports the Conservative Party in an election year, and if 'Labour' then it supports the Labour Party etc. I say 'usually' because The Sun (which is a comic, not a newspaper IMO), which is A Murdoch Paper (owned by Rupert Murdoch, together with The Times) supported Labour in the last election, as did The Times. Mind you, who didn't? The Tories were in disarray and had no hope of being elected at the time (and have precious little now unless they pull their socks up).

[thermidor.livejournal.com]

I was hoping to see you comment here, Mandragora.

I really enjoy your Brit explantations.

You da man! (so to speak)

[darklybright.livejournal.com]

Hmm ... can you put in context what exactly you are after? Is it a certain kind of newspaper or magazine? If you describe the sort of thing you are looking for I can let you know if we have anything like that in the UK.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

I would think that The Sun is rather like one of my local papers, the Tribune-Review, but it's not. It's more along the lines of a tabloid rag, unless I'm much mistaken.

Yes, but an incredibly professionally-reported and edited tabloid rag, with razor-sharp reflexes.

The British tabloids have invented the genre. It's aggressive, prejudiced, competitive, and massively entertaining. The Sun isn't really online, but the Daily Mirror (http://www.mirror.co.uk) (a more Left-wing competitor) is. It should give you an idea of that style. Also, they may distort the news, but they do throw dozens of reporters at a story, and they have scoops.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

Complete with the Page 3 girl, IIRC . . . and I'm pretty sure she was bare breasted. That can't be right.

[darklybright.livejournal.com]

The page on houses is funny, because apparently all houses in Britain have really tacky wallpaper in them.
This is true, except mine, which has Anaglypta. Some may say it's tacky, but its all swirly and spirally so I love it. My cats love sharpening their claws on it though, unfortunatly. What Lexin says about the correlation between poverty and tacky wallpaper in Britain is in my experience absolutely true, especially houses that have dado rails and (ick) stripey wallpaper up to the dado rail and then plain above (ick ick ick)

[sparcck.livejournal.com]

Actually, I would say that Cosmo is more of a thirty-something Chelsea gay man, who loves watching all the Upper East Side women poured into clothes seven years too young for her (which is fine, because she claims to be seven years younger than she is), clawing each other's eyes out to get the brand new tip on how to get her husband to pay more attention to her first.

But perhaps I'm too harsh.

This is fabulous by the way. *cackles madly, sends to everyone I know*

[xoverau.livejournal.com]

I have nothing reasonable to offer, but I'm deeply amused anyway.

[dracostella.livejournal.com]

Random comment...
I read the New York Times though I get annoyed at them trying to be "middle of the road" even though it's not really, but recently I picked up a Wall Street Journal From the recycling ben, and to my surprise, most of the articles were very liberal (for newspaper standard anyway). It was dead on in its attack of the Republican's push for ultra conservative judges on the benches. It was a much more Democrat slanted article than I've ever seen on New York Times.

Anyway, I had to share my surprise...

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

The WSJ is fiscally quite conservative, but it's not religiously conservative at all. In fact, it often seems to object to religion as mucking about overmuch with economics.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Actually, I find the WSJ reporters to be fairly liberal, while their editorial pages are slightly to the right of Attilla the Hun.

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

ah, and I don't read the editorial pages, just a bunch of the interesting economic reporting and some of the other stuff - all of which reads "libertarian" to me, and not liberal. Then again, when libertarians aren't haring off about money they often come off like liberals.

Which is why most people think I'm a liberal.

[darklybright.livejournal.com]

Okay, been thinking about this a bit more, specifically in terms of what magazines and newspapers various HP characters might read. I'm sure I remember somewhere in one of the books that it is mentioned that Dumbledore takes Muggle newspapers. I think he would be inclined to read The Times of course, as it is the establishment quality broadsheet. I get the feeling that he would also read The Guardian, as it is a very fresh, liberal paper, well designed and quite 'hip' with a slant towards education, environmental and social issues. I think that would be the one that most matches his politics. I reckon he would also listen to the 'Today' program on Radio 4. It's on between 6 and 9 am Monday - Saturday and is a very heavyweight news programme. It's listened to by all the top politicians and movers and shakers in the UK and its presenters are highly respected journalists. I reckon Fudge would listen to it, and read The Times, but he wouldn't be seen dead reading The Guardian. I'm sure the Dursleys would read the Daily Mail, especially Petunia. It's quite low-brow and aimed at middle class, middle aged people for whom money and conspicuous consumption is the most important thing in their lives. It's very poplular with women like Petunia. Fudge probably reads the Daily Mail secretly. Percy Weasley would read nothing but The Times. Molly would read 'Good Housekeeping' magazine I reckon. I don't think Snape would touch any muggle newspaper with a bargepole.

[dahlia-777.livejournal.com]

Well, OK, I'm a Brit so I can give this one a go.

The rough equivalents to the US publications you mentioned:

New York Times =
The Guardian
www.guardian.co.uk
Only it's a bit wackier, and more liberal. Doesn't take itself as seriously as the NYT.

Wall Street Journal =
The Financial Times
http://news.ft.com/home/uk/
The Daily Telegraph
http://www.telegraph.co.uk
The FT is business-oriented. The Telegraph is a mainstream paper, with a strong business section, and very High Tory (ie Republican).

Ladies Home Journal =
Good Housekeeping
http://www.goodhousekeeping.co.uk/

I don't think we have an equivalent to the New Yorker. Gay liberal types probably read The Guardian.

Cosmo - well, we have Cosmo here too, and it's probably similar to the US version.

I could profile some TV and radio shows for you, but it would help if I knew the type you were looking for?

[darklybright.livejournal.com]

Yes, Vernon Dursley would definitely read The Telegraph. I forgot to say that. Lucius would read the Times I think. He's got so much money he doesn't need to read The Telegraph. He would read the FT (Financial Times) if he's secretly got shares in muggle companies. Wouldn't put it past him.

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

We are canonically told that Vernon Dursley reads the Daily Mail

[darklybright.livejournal.com]

Rightho. Sorry, I forgot.

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

What is "reads the Daily Mail" a social code for?

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

oops, sorry, I see you answered that question above.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Large print. Simple words. WE HEART THE ROYAL FAMILY AND THEIR SCANDALS. The Daily Mail's got it all!

...not that I've ever actually read it, but that's what the Sunday Times has to say about it.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Large print. Simple words. WE HEART THE ROYAL FAMILY AND THEIR SCANDALS. The Daily Mail's got it all!
...not that I've ever actually read it, but that's what the Sunday Times has to say about it.

And this differs from the Sunday Times contents exactly how?

'Twas the Sunday Times which gave the world the Andrew Morton Diana bio, and the whacko Nick Davies nonsense about her being murdered. In the past 15 years, the ST has increasingly become a disguised middlebrow tabloid with a gazillion ad-hoovering sections.

Not to trash the Daily Mail altogether, either. They were the ones who commissioned V.S. Naipaul to cover the Argentinian side of the Falklands, and their sister paper, the Mail on Sunday, hired Julie Burchill as a columnist in the mid-80s, which in US terms coulds losely translate as the New York Post giving Michael Moore a column. The Mail may pander to a lot of middle-class prejudices, but it panders unbelievably creatively and entertainingly. If you want to see the difference between editorial talent & lack thereof, just compare a copy of the Mail and one of the Express any day of the week.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Erm... I wasn't doing a 'Sunday Times rocks!' thing, I was just pointing out that as I live in Ireland, I don't know much about the British papers and as such have never read the Daily Mail. The Sunday Times does sell here, however, and it tends to give me a large portion of my general knowledge of stuff Britishy.

(never heard of Julie Burchill. Does she lie as much as Michael Moore does? I hope not.)

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Burchill is very talented and quite, quite mad. She's a columnist, however, as opposed to Moore who says he reports facts. Burchill started on "The Face" on the 80s when she was 17 and never looked back. The Grauniad is actually a more logical place for her to write than the Mail on Sunday or the Sunday Times, where she has written in the past. Rather than describe her stuff, I suggest you look up her columns on the Guardian website, where, as infinitemonkeys writes, they are the most downloaded stuff of all. (Proof that even your Guardian reader is human likes entertainment...)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Burchill started on "The Face" on the 80s when she was 17 and never looked back.

I don't suppose she's the "Julie" in Pete Townshend's anti-journalist song "Jules and Jim"?

But did you read the stuff that Julie said?

Or little Jimmy with his hair dyed red?

They don't give a shit Keith Moon is dead?

Is that exactly what I thought I read?

[(Anonymous)]

Burchill started on the NME, not The Face. She's about to leave the Graun for The Times, which has reportedly offered to double her pay.

Dahlia

[dahlia-777.livejournal.com]

In JKR's view, probably 'small-minded bigot'. The Daily Mail is not too fond of single mothers. Or working mothers. Or women generally. Which is weird, because it has huge numbers of women readers. (The Guardian ran a big article on this contradiction in its media section a while back).

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Actually, the Mail has brilliant women's features, because they are very aware of what you accurately said, i.e. they have a majority of women readers. I suspect you haven't read it in a bit. Of course they have tonnes of stuff on working mothers & single mothers, etc.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Dahlia, the Tories could never be as bad as the Republicans! Be fair to your own country now, come on.

As to your question, Res, I only live in Ireland and so rarely read the Brit newspapers, but yeah, what D said. Generally you just have to account for the fact that Britain in general is waayyy more left-wing than America, and the papers reflect that. So The Telegraph wouldn't be that much off the NYT in the political spectrum.

The British tabloid rags are a thing of sheer beauty in that they're like a stereotype of tabloids. They transcend tabloids in their tabloidiness.

[dahlia-777.livejournal.com]

Erm, L... let's not forget the John Major government. Hard one to beat for venality, incompetence, hypocrisy... Should I go on? No, I'd best shut up now. :-)

But yeah, the Tory/Republican thing is pretty broadbrush. They're both right wing, but there are huge cultural differences.

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

The Grangers read the Guardian (or possibly the Independent) during the week and take the Observer on Sundays. These are liberal-left leaning, and keen on good causes and campaigning journalism (think SPEW). And Mrs G adores trying out Nigel Slater's recipes on the family. They all collectively loathe Julie Burchill, and Mr G.'s proudest moment was when his letter in riposte to one of her columns was actually published. They use the clipping as a book mark, but all the family can find it if need be.

The Finch-Fletchleys may well take the Times (while deploring how vulgar it has bcome since Murdoch bought it in the 1980s) and certainly the FT during Mon-Fri for Finch-Fletchley pere. As an alternative to the Times they might well read the Telegraph, on the grounds that its sports coverage is unequalled in the UK (which is undoutbedly true) even while admitting that its crossword "is the last refuge of the lazy mind". On Sunday they read the Sunday Times. They are the only family in canon confident enough to confess to reading the Sun and News of the World, which they characterise as "a hoot" and "comics". Mrs FF reads Tatler at her hairdresser - and they always have the current edition. And OK or Hello, when she's been warned in advance she has a friend to look out for. Justin's little sister buys Horse and Hound and follows it religiously, having graduated from Pony last year. Mr FF buys Yachting World, and dreams of escaping his family to the Caribbean aboard a Swan 65.

The Creeveys. Mr Creevey, as a milkman, is acutely aware that socially everyone assumes he reads the Sun (or, if left of centre, the Daily Mirror). This irks him, because he has always prided himself on taking the Times under the discounted scheme for schoolkids, to help the boys better themselves. And at least they are both at public school now. If a somewhat odd one. Mrs C doesn't worry, and reads Have a Break! for the relaxation.

The Dursleys, as explained, take the Daily Mail. A fat tabloid sized chuck of self-righteousness and Middle Englander bile, hot against asylum seekers and perverts, a newspaper which supported Mussolini's Fascists and Moseley's balckshirts into the late 1930s. It saves the Dursleys the effort of thinking for themselves.

[axiom_of_stripe]

if i may ask a related question: when you say "take the paper", do you mean subscribe to it? (americans use "get the paper" in that context.)

[shezan.livejournal.com]

As usual, excellent stuff, worthy of the best Jilly Cooper, although I think you're hard on the Mail, who certainly aren't responsible today of the 1930s Harmsworth Horrors. (The Mail is miles above, in sheer professional sleekness, all the other red-tops, except perhaps the Sun, which caters for an entirely different readership.) I suspect Mrs FF reads (and even buys) the Mail and the MoS, because of all the women's features.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

This made me laugh even though I've never seen any of the publications mentioned (except for the Guardian's Notes & Queries online, which is one of those things that I can't imagine finding in an American newspaper).

because he has always prided himself on taking the Times under the discounted scheme for schoolkids, to help the boys better themselves. And at least they are both at public school now. If a somewhat odd one.

[laughing] Oh, this explains that Creevey style of cheerful franticness so well!

Hacking

[shezan.livejournal.com]

You haven't yet come across the "Yes, Prime Minister" classic take on British papers, I assume?

Here goes:

(Prime Minister Jim Hacker) : I know exactly who reads the papers. The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country. The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country. The Times is read by people who actually do run the country. The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country. The Financial Times is read by people who own the country. The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country. The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

(Permanent Cabinet Secretary Sir Humphrey Appleby) : Prime Minister, what about people who read the Sun?

(Private Secretary Bernard Wooley) : Sun readers don't care who runs the country as long as she's got big tits.

Re: Hacking

[darklybright.livejournal.com]

Absolutely classic, thanks for reminding me of that.

Re: Hacking

[luthien.livejournal.com]

This exchange from 'Yes Prime Minister' was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw this post. It's one of my favourites from a favourite show. Thanks for saving me the trouble of hunting it out.

[infinitemonkeys.livejournal.com]

1) The red tops (tabloids)

The Sun still sells the most (about 1m copies) but its circulation is falling. Owned by the devilRupert Murdoch.
Celeb-driven, loves royal stories, vicars and tarts, tends to mock anything European. Extremely vulgar, often funny, if reprehensible. When the Potter books begin it was at the very end of its "glory days".
Typical headlines: [On European Union, under Jacques Delors] "Up yours, Delors"; "Freddie Starr Ate my Hamster; [Of the Argentinians, during the Falklands War] "Stick it up your junta"

The Daily Mirror, like The Sun, only slightly tamer, selling fewer and a fair bit further left. Loves royal scoops and celebs caught with their trousers down. I could imagine Hagrid reading the magical equivalent of The Mirror.

Daily Star, now a wank mag with a bit of news thrown in, these days but if you take Potter canon as beginning in 1990, it was much like The Mirror

The Daily Sport is like a cross between Penthouse and the National Enquirer. My favourite headlines from it include "The Virgin Mary Built Our Shed", "Double Decker Bus Found On Moon" and "My Son Was Turned Into A Fishfinger". Read by "lads"

2) The midmarkets

Daily Mail. Totally a Vernon Dursley paper. Owned by Lord Rothermere, politically powerful in Middle England because it reflects their prejudices back at them, sells about 2m, *brilliantly* put-together and marketed, much as I dislike it. Read by a *lot* of women, despite the fact that its attitude to women is that they can never be slim enough, young enough or quiet enough. It dislikes asylum seekers, benefits claimants, "the underclass", Europeans, wishywashy pinko liberals, the BBC and The Guardian.

The Express. Was once much bigger than The Daily Mail, now read by older lower-middle-class people. Mildly conservative. Rumours of its closure have been floating around for years

3) The broadsheets

The Times. Read by people who *want* to run the country, accountants, upper management, upper government workers, and some of those who do run the country. Right-wing. Was the paper of record in this country but has sadly lost its authoritative presence since it was bought by Murdoch. Good foreign coverage.

The Daily Telegraph. Run by the people who own the land. Right-wing, high Tory, wealthy with a conscience and a bloody good paper, but its age-profile is a worry, as its readership skews old.

The Independent. Aimed to be just that, but has been in circulation trouble. Tends to be liberal but less left-leaning than the Guardian. (Also less pretentious) Was the paper where Bridget Jones started as a weekly newspaper column)

The Guardian, which is the only truly independent newspaper in the main market, as it's owned by a trust whose only aim is to perpetuate the Guardian and its liberal, campaigning agenda. Nicknamed The Grauniad for its dodgy typesetting. Makes more of its money than any other newspaper from recruitment ads -- has a huge readership in the media, academia, social work, local government work and particularly education because of it. Its news coverage is skewed towards those subjects. The Grangers probably read it. I should also add that Julie Burchill is the most downloaded page on the Guardian website, a fact which greatly pains them *g*

[infinitemonkeys.livejournal.com]

4) Sundays

News of the World (AKA News of the Screws) The Sun on Sunday.
The Sunday People --> The Mirror on a Sunday
Sunday Times/Sunday Telegraph/Mail on Sunday/Sunday Express (see above, but on Sunday)
The Observer ---> The Guardian on Sunday, but a slightly less liberal agenda

Some big-selling magazines here are Hello! (Spanish celeb hagiography, probably read by Petunia in the hairdressers), its rival OK!, which is a downmarket version of Hello!, the Radio Times (TV listings mag owned by the BBC), Woman's Own (which is recipes, tips for dealing with recalcitrant children and true-life heartache, might be a guilty pleasure of Mrs Weasley's if she read muggle publications); People's Friend (stories and tips for the over-60s)

Rich country dwellers read Horse and Hound, Country Life

Londoners read Time Out, a listings magazine which is aiming for the young, hip and rich of the capital

Teenagers might read Smash Hits, Just 17 (girl's mag popular in 1980s, little sister version of Cosmo). Dean, keen for news about West Ham, might read the football mag Shoot!

TV shows:

Depends on when you're talking about. Our TV has changed massively in the past decade.

Crimewatch, Channel 4 News (best of the news programmes, IMO) BBC 6 o'clock news; ITV News At 10, Newsnight (very serious current affairs programme, much watched by politicos), Grandstand (Sports on Saturday) Match of the Day (Football coverage until 2000)

Soaps: British soaps are more respectable than US soaps and can often be beautifully written in their own soapy way. They also get miles more viewers than almost anything else.

1) Coronation Street. Set in a Salford backstreet. Said to be the Queen's favourite programme (along with Channel 4 Racing).
The funniest of the soaps because it cultivates characters who teeter on the edge of caricature without tipping into ridiculousness, though it's mostly about scams and infidelity. At its very best, it's as if Terry Pratchett wrote soap opera.

2) EastEnders. Set in the East End of London, known for being gritty and realistic (in inverted commas) and dealing with ripped-from-the-headlines issues.
Tends to wrestle with Corrie for top ratings and its viewership skews younger

3) Emmerdale. Set in Yorkshire village. Used to be about farming folk, now is more about infidelity and is trying to attract a younger audience.

4) Brookside. Went off-air this month but was Channel 4's biggest rated programme for a long time when it tried to out-grit EastEnders with murders and gangsters in Liverpool.

5) Hollyoaks Set in Chester, it is a soap for teenagers about teenagers. Tends to deal with pregnancy, drugs and learning to pass your driving test.

ABC figures

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Your circulation figures are a bit off. ABC figures for 2002 are:

The Sun - 3.5 million copies daily
The Mirror - 2.1 million
The Star - 691,000
The Sport - no figures availables but lotsa big tits, guv'nor
The Mail - 2.4 million
The Express - 946,000
The Times - 700,000
The Torygraph - 1 million
The Grauniad - 397,000
The Indie - 226,000
The FT - 475,000

You should mention that the Mirror is left-wing -- opposed the war in Iraq, etc. -- and that the Express is now pathetically owned by a porn-mag baron.

And then there are the Sundays, which are separate staffs but belong each to a group also publishing a daily. The News of the World ( circ. 4 million) is the sister paper to the Sun; the Sunday Mirror (1.8 million) sister to the Daily M, The Sunday People (would it be sister to the Star? I forget, anyway, 1.3 million); The Mail on Sunday (2.4 million), the Sunday Express (915,000); the Sunday Times (1.4 million), the Sunday Torygraph (780,000), the Observer (sister to the Grauniad, 450,000), the Indie on Sunday (230,000).

And the reason why all these newspapers sell so many copies is that they are extremely entertaining, all of them in their varied styles. Having had Japanese newspapers (who enjoy the same kinds of circulations) translated to me, I can now safely say the British press is world champion on how to make good newspapers, each with their own brief.

(Being French, I can get away with saying it, too...)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

This is terrifically helpful. I seem to have hit a lull in fannish writing (the Stupid Romance Novel is sucking up all my narrative motivation), but when I get back to it, I'll be digging into this in more detail.