The opposite of faith

[resonant]

So a man and two women from the church down the street knocked on the door, and the man said, "We're asking our neighbors whether they're sure they'll go to heaven."

I said, "I don't think it's good for people to be sure they'll go to heaven."

He looked a little nonplussed at that -- evidently he was still interested enough in religion that he was tempted to get into a conversation about it -- but he mastered his curiosity and moved on to the next step in the script. "If you died today, and you were standing at the gates of heaven, and God said, 'Why should I let you in?' what would you say?"

(I hate to write cliches, so I'd like to say that the women had some participation in this exchange, but actually they both just stood there on the porch giving him supportive looks.)

"I'd say, 'Because you love me,' " I said. I tried to keep the 'duh' intonation out of my voice.

"Well, that's very true," he said, "but the Bible tells us a way we can be even more confident when we stand face to face with God ..."

Like you're going to look into the face of the Divine and even remember your own name, never mind have the presence of mind to present the spiritual boxtops you've collected in exchange for eternal life, I thought. But by now I was angry, and being angry with strangers over theology isn't a productive use of emotional energy (plus when I'm angry I tend to cry, and I couldn't bear the thought of them walking away saying, 'I think we really touched her'). So I said, "I've spent as much time on this conversation as I care to, so I'm going to say goodbye now." And I shut the door.

I think the thing I hate most about this theology is that it's so damned capitalistic. You've got a contract; you've done everything spelled out on the contract; now God has to hold up his end. (His, yes. These people's god is always male.)

My friend Ptom says, "The opposite of faith isn't doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty."

(Next time I'm going to say, "I only discuss religion with people I love.")

Comments

[kassrachel.livejournal.com]

Gah. What a frustrating and craptastic conversation. It sounds like you handled it about as well as one possibly could, but still. Feh.

My sympathies. I hope your day improves.

[halimede.livejournal.com]

My friend Ptom says, "The opposite of faith isn't doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty."

I've got a revelation stuck in my head about how no, the highest measure of faith is *not* going against your own better sense, and why that self-deprecating interpretation of faith might be really popular about now, but yeah.

What freaks me out about this guy you talked to is the glib salesman thing. 'be even more confident' indeed.

[movies-michelle.livejournal.com]

I hate the barter system idea of God. Like if you do x, y, and z, then he owes you something. Me, I thought the point of praying and worshiping God was that you were, you know, worshiping God, not about what you got out of the deal. (I like your boxtop analogy.)

[jood.livejournal.com]

The opposite of faith is certainty

Hear, hear. I really resent being told I'm wrong and eternally doomed by people who are convinced they've cornered the market on the understanding of Divine Will because somebody else told them they have.


My favorite experience in this vein was the pair of Jehovah's Witnesses who came to the door during a rehearsal of the professional Jewish choir I sang in. I invited them in to sit and listen until our break (which I didn't tell them was in about 45 minutes), during which we could talk. After about 25 minutes of nonstop Hebrew and Yiddish songs, they just got up and quietly left.

I heartily recommend having a professional Jewish choir available at all times.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I heartily recommend having a professional Jewish choir available at all times.

Plus, when you don't have weirdos knocking at the door, they can provide either music or conversation.

[evilprettykitty.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of the Natalie Portman interview on Inside the Actor's Studio. The last question is always, "If heaven exists, what would you like God to say to you when you get there?" And her answer was wonderful. She said she didn't like the idea of heaven because then people weren't doing nice things to be nice, but were doing them to get something from it. i so totally agree with that.

[postholedigger.livejournal.com]

Hi. Unlurking now to point out that this certainty of salvation BS is relatively new (like 20th century) and the fathers of Protestantism would be appalled at their gall. My field is History of Christianity (and no, that doesn't mean I'm a believer) and I can say with some certainty that the whole structure (I won't say theology because I don't think many understand the term) of modern evangelical Christianity owes almost nothing to what Luther, Calvin, Beza, Zwingli et al had in mind. I will say I think you handled that just right because they certainly wouldn't have been open to any kind of debate on the subject.
Is it clear those people piss me off? Heh.

[hobbit-feet.livejournal.com]

Well, I think you handled the situation very well. I loved your answer.

And your friend's quote is excellent, I hope you don't mind if I use that some time. The opposite of faith is certainty because certain is exactly what faith isn't. Faith isn't based on anything you can verify. There is no proof. One of the definitions of the word faith is "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" and people just don't seem to understand that.

*quietly steps off soapbox*

[sine-que-non767.livejournal.com]

moved on to the next step in the script

Ha. Just about sums it up. :(

I like your response - dignified and polite. I'm just sorry they didn't have anything better to say...

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

Next time I'm going to say, "I only discuss religion with people I love."

That's a good response! And I agree with your friend Ptom, too. I think (many? most? all?) people who profess faith do so because they have no certainty, and hope thereby to achieve it. Although not everyone who admits doubt professes faith, either...

[theodosia.livejournal.com]

>I don't think it's good for people to be sure they'll go to heaven.

Oh, so agreed on that. Or maybe I just took in a good Presbyterian-sized chunk of the idea that salvation is a lifelong ongoing =process=.

If I believed today, I'd believe in Universal Salvation.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

The scary thing? These people are Presbyterians!!!!

Of course, they're from the church that split off from the PCUSA over the issue of gay ordination, but they still claim the name of Presbyterians, and yet they're going door to door basically teaching -- not quite that you can achieve salvation through works, but more like, you can achieve salvation through faith, and you can achieve faith through works.

whoa! my (ex)church!

[snpdiva.livejournal.com]

I recently left a church of this denomination. I left for two reasons, the first one being that our new pastor has bastardized the music so badly that I can't tolerate it. The second reason I left has to do with the gay ordination thing. This church not only won't allow gay clergymen, but won't admit ANY openly gay/bi persons to membership at all. It just made me so angry. For instance, divorced guy on his third wife can be "right with God" in their eyes, but not me, because I believe that monogamy with a person of either sex is best.

Anyway... the point I really wanted to make was that as a teenager, I underwent that training where you go door to door asking those questions. I have to say, your answer to the initial question was the best one I've ever heard. And they never taught us what to do when someone HAD an answer to the question, as if that would never happen.

Good for you.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Oh, wow. It had never occurred to me that these people had had training. I'd love to hear more about that, if you're interested in sharing.

Did you ever actually do the door-to-door thing? I always feel sorry for people who do, since I know people can be very rude to them -- which is why I let them draw me into this ill-advised conversation to begin with, I guess.

EE training

[snpdiva.livejournal.com]

Yes, there is a course that you can take at a lot of churches called "Evangelism Explosion", or EE for short. It teaches you how to share the Christian faith based on the first answer to the first question, which is "If you died today, and God asked you why He should let you into Heaven, what would you say?"

Overall, it's a good way of sharing one's faith, but the problem is that you have to go knock on some stranger's door and invade their privacy like a broom salesman or something. I don't think that's really appropriate in most cases. If someone ASKS you "what do you believe in" or "I find your faith appealing, please tell me more about it", then that's a whole different story.

I guess I'm a pretty non-traditional Christian in that I don't worry a lot about converting other people. I do believe in Heaven and Hell, but I don't think that a loving God punishes innocents. There is a story in the book "The Last Battle" (one of C.S. Lewis' "Chronicles of Narnia") that really sums up what I believe about God. I don't know if you are familiar with these books, but if not, do yourself a favor and read them. They're right up there with Lord of the Rings as great fantasy literature, and they are also an allegory for the Christian faith. Anyway, in this scene, a young Calormen soldier suddenly finds himself in Aslan's Heaven. Aslan the Lion represents Jesus, and Tash represents Satan.



I think that is brilliant, and that is what I believe about good and evil. This philosophy covers rejection of evil done in the name of God/Christ, and allows for others who serve True Goodness to be received into Heaven even if they don't follow what we call "Christianity".

I hope to hear back from you, too! Merry Christmas!

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Did anyone say or suggest to you that your own salvation depended on your being able to convert other people?

The thing that puzzles me about this whole thing is, going door to door and offering strangers something that most of them don't want is hard work, and unpleasant, too. And mostly people won't do it unless they want something from you. (Usually it's money, but sometimes it's a vote, or a volunteer commitment, or something like that.)

These folks weren't asking for money, and the guy never said or even hinted that he wanted me to go to their church. So I can't figure out what they wanted from me that was important enough to them to send them out on an errand like that one.

[snpdiva.livejournal.com]

Well, here's the thing.

If you really believe that anyone who doesn't profess faith in Jesus Christ spends the eternal afterlife burning in hell, you have two alternatives. You can either say "forget about them, they don't matter", or (if you think others do matter, and you do care about them) you have to try to convince them to see things your way.

When you look at it that way, it's kind of a compliment. At least they care enough about you to try and share their hope for eternal paradise with you. They are saying "even though we don't know you at all, and there's nothing you can give us or do for us, we don't want you to die and go to hell".

I think that's nice. Gives you a little more faith in humanity, doesn't it?

Aranel

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I have a hard time getting inside this mindset. My conviction is that everyone deserves condemnation, but that everyone is loved regardless, so the idea that it's up to us to save one another (as opposed to help one another, with food and encouragement and such) seems like both hubris and a lack of trust in the Divine to me.

But then, I've never been able to believe in hell, either, any more than I believe that my parents would be willing to have me tortured or deprived of love forever just because of the things I did wrong when I was a child. Of course they wouldn't. And they're fallible humans who can only love in a limited way.

[shocolate.livejournal.com]

Yup.

The Church down the road put an envelope through my door today, asking if I have anything I'd like them to pray for for me - I can drop it in their box anonymously.

I wanted to put something about 'pray that Ron Weasley survives at the end of book seven', but I was a good girl and just threw it away. I wonder if I will get a good snog out of this story if I tell hubby what a good girl I was?

red envelope

[jenna-thorn.livejournal.com]

You are a much better girl than I would be.


I'd probably write something about tolerance and passing legislation for equal marriage rights. With a smile.

But then, I'm naughty.

[ladysorka]

If I was standing at the gates of Heaven and God said "Why should I let you in?" I'd probably be impertinent and say "You're God. You're supposed to be omnipotent. Like Santa. You know with the big list of 'naughty' and 'nice'. Jeffrey Dahmer gets coal and Mother Theresa gets candy. Don't you know?"

[fyre-bird.livejournal.com]

"I'd say, 'Because you love me,' " I said.
The opposite of faith is certainty.

These are both incredibly profound sentiments. If I was wearing a hat, it would be off to you. Instead I'll just have to jingle my Christmas socks in your honor.

[farwing.livejournal.com]

spiritual boxtops

This is a lovely turn of phrase. Sorry you had to deal with such unfortunate individuals. Certainty scares me. Doubt is healthy, in my tradition.

[helvirago]

"If you died today, and you were standing at the gates of heaven, and God said, 'Why should I let you in?' what would you say?"

"Well if you don't know either, then I think we're all screwed."

[bluerose16.livejournal.com]

XD

<3333

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I said, "I don't think it's good for people to be sure they'll go to heaven."

Oh, bless you. That's wonderful. And what you're planning to say next time is lovely as well.

[the-shoshanna.livejournal.com]

I am so impressed with you now.

[jelazakazone.livejournal.com]

This is awesome. And at least they didn't knock after you shut the door like the most recent peddler at my door did (and then had the nerve to tell me I was rude and that he wasn't soliciting....).

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Oh, good lord. What are people thinking?!

"I'm not soliciting! I'm wasting your time, but I'm not directly asking for money!"

[phoenixw.livejournal.com]

I only discuss religion with people I love.

OMG, so perfect! Says no in a non-provacative way and gets them off the porch. I haven't had a visit from a conversionist in quite a while, but next time I do I'll be sure to quote you.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

I like that Ptom.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

He's a good guy. And a Presbyterian minister, actually, so maybe he cancels these idiots out.

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

"If you died today, and you were standing at the gates of heaven, and God said, 'Why should I let you in?' what would you say?"

"Well if you don't know either, then I think we're all screwed."

ROTFL!

I only discuss religion with people who don't think they already know all the answers... too much smug gives me the pip.

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

"We're asking our neighbors whether they're sure they'll go to heaven."

That question is just so presumptuous and all sorts of wrong. First, it supposes that these three have a right to know.

I'm Presbyterian myself, but if our church required us to do this kind of invasive interaction, I'd be gone so fast, the candles would extinguish themselves from the wind I'd generate. (Besides, the Presbyterian concept of predestination ensures that God already knows your answer, so the whole conversation is moot).

You handled yourself with appropriate dignity.

[copernica3.livejournal.com]

Your answers were beautiful.

[ardent-muses.livejournal.com]

I would have thought of answers that were maybe half that good, but not until three days from now, when I would be kicking myself.

Thank you -- I feel uplifted just reading your post. :)

[mmariep2.livejournal.com]

you handled that much better than i ever would have.

and just like everyone else, your replies were beautiful, especially the one about god loving you.

me i'm not very religious but if i were to categorize my religion it'd be pagan/wicca... i once had this guy come up to me and ask me openly, "what do you think of god?"

my answer? "god is a woman..." that really stumped him for a bit.

again, i'd like to say that what you've written was beautiful and the way you handled them was admirable.

[atropos-lee.livejournal.com]

One of my all time favourite scary books is a very cautionary tale of what happens when an individual is confident of a place of heaven.

Read The Private Memoirs and Confessions of a Justified Sinner by James Hogg for un-put-downable gothic entertainment, and/or a sleepless night! (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1853261882/qid=1103709890/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_11_1/026-4309216-6119637)

In short, in the early 1700's a young boy is brought up to believe that he is assured a place among the elect - regardless of his other actions...

The free Gutenberg text is on-line here (http://digital.library.upenn.edu/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=2276).

You done good.

[wordwitch.livejournal.com]

I've had similar conversations. But as a Wiccan and a Unitarian, I have a few more resources available to me.

Last winter, I invited a couple of Mormon missionaries in out of the cold after the one made the mistake of saying, sure, he'd like to hear the basic tenets of UUism, of which he'd never heard before. Poor critter. I tend to get a bit enthusiastic.

But:
"We're asking our neighbors whether they're sure they'll go to heaven."
Oh, no, not me! You can have my spot: I'm headed to the Summerlands, myself.

"If you died today, and you were standing at the gates of heaven, and God said, 'Why should I let you in?' what would you say?"
Oops, wrong door; I've no intention of spending my afterlife with bigots.

"the Bible tells us a way we can be even more confident when we stand face to face with God ..."
Oh dear. Please don't tell me you're a bibliolator.

Politeness deserves politeness; aggression deserves verbal self-defense.

Psst.

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/cluegirl/437454.html?view=2803662#t2803662

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Aww. Thanks!

Sorry for OT, but the rules demanded :/

[painless-j.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/painless_j/84578.html

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

[hugs you]

[blacksquirrel.livejournal.com]

"If you died today, and you were standing at the gates of heaven, and God said, 'Why should I let you in?' what would you say?"

I'd say, "Woah, I didn't know death was just like an oral thesis defense. Is this an open book question?" No really, the entire premise is so very silly. Why in the world would getting into heaven require snappy verbal skills? All bad public speakers now go to Hell?

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

All bad public speakers now go to Hell?

And the sooner the better.

[janecarnall.livejournal.com]

Someone once asked me that question. (I was on my way to Gay Pride at the time, wearing the appropriate t-shirt.)

I said "I'd say to God that there's a verse - I think it's in Matthew - (I was right, it is) that says you go to heaven if, and only if, you give food to the hungry and clothes to the naked. And in this century's terms, I've always tried to do that." And then I added "I think I see my friends. I have to go now."

I don't think she was expecting that response from me in my Dip me in honey and throw me to the lesbians t-shirt....