The problem of Pepper

[resonant]

I really don't think I'm the kind of slasher who hates canonical female love interests. I had a lovely daydream involving John Sheppard kissing Teyla. I've written Ron/Hermione. And Ray K/Stella, for crying out loud. I thought Steve Rogers and Agent Carter in "Captain America" were adorable.

But I watched the two "Iron Man" movies this week (not for any particular reason [shifty look]), and -- look, am I the only one who can't stand Pepper Potts?

I mean, maybe she was better in the comics? Maybe it's just the way the scriptwriters wrote her that I don't like? Or the way Gwyneth Paltrow performed her?



Because in herself she was brittle, nervous, indirect and unassertive to the point of passive-aggressiveness -- OK, I understand that working as Tony Stark's assistant would not necessarily be the most wholesome thing for a person's mental health, but get a backbone or get another job, you know?

I hated that the role the movie carved out for her was such that it was her job to nag. I hated that, despite her obvious intelligence and multifarious business skills, it was impossible to imagine her being a competent CEO, because you never got to see her being calm, decisive, and authoritative -- only whiny and babbling.

In general I hated her relationship with Tony. I hate that dynamic where the woman has to be the grown-up so the man can continue to be a child.

And she didn't listen. Whole plot points revolved around her talking over Tony while he was attempting, in his admittedly rather childish way, to make some deep emotional revelation, so that she never found out what he was trying to tell her until much later, when she would screech at him about not telling her.

The mutual regard between them was very clear, the kissing was very sweet, but the idea of their becoming romantically involved -- while her role continued to be basically to follow him from room to room yelling at him to pick up his socks -- is horrific to me.

Comments

[yahtzee]

In general I hated her relationship with Tony. I hate that dynamic where the woman has to be the grown-up so the man can continue to be a child.

OK, I understand that working as Tony Stark's assistant would not necessarily be the most wholesome thing for a person's mental health, but get a backbone or get another job, you know?

Just want to get this clear: These are reasons to hate PEPPER, but not to hate TONY, right?

Because her personality is her fault and his personality ... is not, I guess.

[resonant]

Good point! I suppose that, because they're his movies, you get to see multiple sides of him, but only that one side of her.

If the movies had been "Pepper Potts" and "Pepper Potts 2," he would have figured as her annoying, one-dimensional manchild of a boss, and then my only quarrel with her would be, why doesn't she quit and get a job working for somebody who's worthy of her? (and maybe bring her voice down half an octave or so)

[majoline]

I actually really liked the first one, but you've really highlighted the reasons I didn't much like the second one. I liked it when she was really supported in the directing as being the adult humoring the manchild and running a company competently. (I mean everyone knows that's what assistants DO.)

I think that the second one could have been a lot more believable if the bits about nervousness were taken out. It makes sense that she wasn't really paying attention to him (sorta? I mean, not really after the emotional climax of the first film, but whatever.) but hell, most of the industry has probably watched her and Rhodey prop him up and keep from slipping.

Otherwise, it's not my perfect story, because I like independent of Tony!Pepper, but it wouldn't have been practically unwatchable. I mean, do we really need the same exact character development in every single sequel? Pet peeve of mine right there.

[resonant]

One of the trivia notes on IMDb says:

The script was not completely prepared when filming began, since the filmmakers were more focused on the story and the action, so the dialogue was mostly ad-libbed throughout filming; Jon Favreau acknowledged this made the film feel more natural. Some scenes were shot with two cameras to capture lines improvised on the spot; Robert Downey Jr. would ask for many takes of one scene since he wanted to try something new. Gwyneth Paltrow, on the other hand, had a difficult time trying to match Downey with a suitable line, as she never knew what he would say.

So it may be that the actress was actually nervous, and that came across in the character.

[arallara]

I've only seen the first movie, but since I'm not familiar with the comics canon, I decided to try to blame Gwyneth Paltrow for much of my dislike of the character. There are very few context in which I like GP, and this was apparently not one of them.

However, I am also reeeeealllly not a fan of that dynamic where the woman has to be the grown-up so the man can continue to be a child either. That is so, so often my problem with canon het relationships. It's just such a gross gender dynamic to me, and I can never get behind relationships built around it, especially (like with John and Teyla in SGA) when I do really love the female character.

I can tolerate it in the context of friendship (and I really enjoy complicated depictions of male/female friendship in media, even if it includes elements of that dynamic) but when canon turns it into romance, I usually just want to yell at the woman to RUN AWAY RUN FAR FAR AWAY YOU'RE TOO GOOD TO PUT UP WITH THIS SHIT. In SGA, for example, I couldn't imagine Teyla putting up with John's emotionally stunted bullshit in a romantic partnership, didn't want to imagine it, but the slash pairing with Rodney was perfect for me because John and Rodney kind of deserved to stumble around being emotionally stunted together, you know?

[resonant]

This is one area where slash really works better for me than het because it has less baggage -- if you have a story where an emotionally stunted man is in a relationship with a mature woman, you go, "Oh, this tedious, undermining trope again," and it's hard to escape the conclusion that some actual real-life men feel freer to behave in childish ways because that's what they've seen in so many movies and TV shows.

Whereas if you've got two emotionally stunted men, as you say, they kind of deserve each other (and are kind of entertaining to watch). And even if you have one emotionally stunted man and one who's pretty much got it together, at least you can relate to the two of them as individual characters, rather than as gender templates that you've seen over and over.

Like, compare Tony and Pepper to Vetinari and Drumknott in the Discworld books!

I usually just want to yell at the woman to RUN AWAY RUN FAR FAR AWAY YOU'RE TOO GOOD TO PUT UP WITH THIS SHIT

Yeah, both movies had me going, "Run, Pepper, run!"

[wrabbit]

Huh, I didn't get that at all.

In the first movie, I think the implication behind their bickering (always business, never sock related as far as I remember) is that she is the one doing all the dealing and negotiating and talking and buying and selling, both the daily and longterm management of the company, that only Tony technically has authority to do. Her job isn't to be his housekeeper, by any means, from the very beginning she's nothing more than his CEO.

We do see her explicitly take charge several times, like in the second movie when she takes control of the out-of-control drone situation. And I think just how much business crisis-control she fields every day, and furthermore, how much of Stark Industries she controls without any input from Tony, is implied in their conversations when she's "nagging" Tony to please just sign or do something and finalize what she's already handled and done.

Of course we also see her frazzled and freaking out from the stress. But if she weren't supremely calm and competent and able to take authority and make decisions without Tony's cooperation, she could never be "Tony's grown up," ie do all the work of a CEO without any of the official authority.

Not that there isn't some uncomfortable Genius Wrangler dynamic going on, and some damsel in distress and some 'women are hysterical' ramifications in some of the narrative plot points, as you said, but that's how I feel about Pepper as a character.

[linaerys]

This is how I saw it also. I only saw the first movie, so YMMV, but I really liked that she was competent and strong in a bunch of ways without being the Buffy type. Her scenes with Stane were nerve-wracking and amazing.

[resonant]

she is the one doing all the dealing and negotiating and talking and buying and selling, both the daily and longterm management of the company, that only Tony technically has authority to do

I see that, definitely. Still, it seems like every time she's in a scene with him, she's either angry or nervous, and her voice begins to climb, and -- actually I kind of wanted her, instead of trying to talk over him, to reach for a dog-training voice and say, "Tony. Sit down. Be quiet. Sign here."

[wrabbit]

"Tony. Sit down. Be quiet. Sign here."

That is the Pepper we usually get in fanfic :D

[resonant]

I've seen some fanfic Peppers that I've liked quite a lot. That's what made me wonder whether she was better in the comics, but I have no familiarity with them at all.

[monanotlisa]

My comments have to be taken not cum grano salis but with a pound of salt; I found the first Iron Man movie appalling on several levels, if mostly the glorified neo-imperialism and vaguely retro-coloured sexist portrayals...where Pepper definitely comes in; her "taking out the trash" comment actually was like a punch in the gut, if at least as much on the Doylist (putting down women for living their sexuality in exactly the same way as the guy in the picture is not a fave of mine) as the Watsonian level -- Pepper feeling the need to return the provocation of a random ladyfriend of Tony's in such a way; what is this, middle school?

[resonant]

Worse yet, there's that dreadful scene in the second movie where Tony and Pepper meet up with that same reporter in the company of Hammer, and Hammer says, "She's going to do a spread on me for Vanity Fair," and Pepper says, "She did a spread on Tony last year," and Tony says, "And she also wrote a story."

[monanotlisa]

So glad I gave that second one a pass. :/ Bah!

[kindkit]

I liked Pepper find in the first movie, and since I hated everything about Iron Man 2, I actually can't even really remember what she did in it.

But I'm commenting because I think it's okay to dislike a female character. Obviously much depends on the reason (and the manner--fandom could do without all the "that bitch/slut deserves to die in a fire" stuff), and anyone who finds zirself disliking all/most female characters ought to think about that. But not every character is interesting, or likable, or well-developed, and because of the way western media works, that goes double or triple for female characters, especially if they're the love interest and not the protagonist.

I refuse to believe that occasionaly disliking a female character equals misogyny.

[resonant]

See, I kind of feel like there's a real Pepper out there somewhere, of whom this Pepper is a bad representation! And I can imagine that Pepper being a truly excellent character, feet on the ground to counter Tony's head in the clouds, the mad genius's favorite point of contact with the ordinary world and yet someone who has a life beyond Tony Stark.

That possible Pepper bears about as much resemblance to the Pepper of the movies that the best possible John Watson bears to Kate Beaton's Jam Watson.

[sinensis]

I'm not a fan of Gwyneth Paltrow, at all. That said, I think Pepper's character was poorly served by the script, for all the reasons you note--and GP's weaknesses as a performer (she's just not good at projecting strength) really highlight the writing's weaknesses, unfortunately.

I only know the comics canon at a distant second-hand--Tony is an (acknowledged in the text?) alcoholic, right? I haven't seen either of the films in a while, but if I'm remembering correctly, some of their dynamic suggests that particular kind of co-dependency. If that's what the creators were trying to obliquely hint at, while deploying the annoying rom-com cliches, the result is uneven and weird.

[resonant]

She's very pretty; checking IMDb, I find I haven't really seen much she was in, so I didn't have an opinion of her before these movies, but I didn't like her Pepper at all.

As for comics Tony being an alcoholic, yes? I think? I have no familiarity with the comics, and am getting it all at second hand via the slash, which can give a person a wildly distorted picture of the canon. But a story where an addict falls in love with a caretaker is not going to satisfy me as a love story in any way.

[miriad]

Yep- he's an alcoholic in the comics. I believe that he has dealt with his addictions at this point, but he's still an asshole.

Pepper... is not with Tony in the comics, as far as I remember. I think she actually marries someone else. Although, that might be more because Tony is kinda married to Steve Rogers, but that just might be my radical interpretation of the text.

[sinensis]

thanks for clarifying!

...because Tony is kinda married to Steve Rogers
--I am looking forward to the Avengers film for this very reason. Among others. :)

(oh, how happy that icon of yours always makes me.)

[hypertwink]

Seriously, I can't stand Tony Stark. By the 2nd movie, RDJ's smugness was coming off the screen in palpable waves. My favorite characters in Iron Man are Pepper and Agent Coulson, and that right there is my OTP for tht fandom.

[resonant]

I disliked the second Iron Man intensely, and wasn't that wild about the first one, but I found RDJ fascinating to watch. You could actually stitch together all the lab/invention scenes from the two movies and make about thirty minutes of film that I could watch with great pleasure over and over. Plus bonus lack of showgirls.

[giglet]

You could actually stitch together all the lab/invention scenes from the two movies and make about thirty minutes of film that I could watch with great pleasure

Ooh. I'd love to see that! Maybe with a soundtrack by Arc Attack and some of the wilder Maker Faire/Burning Man technologies interspersed?

[marina]

OH MY GOD YES. I don't hate PEPPER, but I hate the way she was written in those movies, the roles she was allowed to play. HATE. I think her dynamic with Tony was the worst and most off putting one I've ever seen in a superhero het couple recently. The only universe I want that relationship to work out in is the one where Tony was born poor and they went through the military together, JFC.

[auctasinistra]

look, am I the only one who can't stand Pepper Potts?

You're not the only one. She started out OK (the line about taking out the trash rocked), then turned into a whiny, wheedly, shivery piddly little mommy-lapdog, begging him for scraps of attention. Neurotic and useless and trodden-on. Yuck. I blame the writers (stab in the dark - they were not women).