December Daily: tropes loved and unloved

[resonant]

terminally_underwhelmed - "What's a popular trope that doesn't do much for you, and an unpopular one you love?"

Popular trope I mostly don't care for: alpha/beta/omega.

I have a theory about at least one appeal that the a/b/o trope has that you don't get with something like sex pollen:: Any story with a female body in it is going to drag in all the associations that the culture puts on female bodies, from their supposedly inherent assaultability to the necessity that they be beautiful and thin and groomed at all times to the fact that they sometimes get pregnant. But on the other hand, a non-dick-centered sexual response has a lot to recommend it in erotica, such as automatic lubrication and multiple orgasms. And this way the writers get to have those advantages, and make their own decision about how many of the drawbacks to include.

So, OK, intellectually I have some grasp of the appeal. But for me -- nah. It makes me pay too much attention to the worldbuilding and not enough attention to the characters and their emotional development. I just generally don't enjoy it.

Unpopular trope I love: I don't have a snappy term to sum this up, but there's a range of tropes that basically boil down to "We're going to have to figure out how to have sex with each other." It covers everything from non-human partners to sexual dysfunction and sexual inexperience. It's part of the appeal of sex scenes with more than two partners and of making formerly straight characters fall in non-straight love. It's the reason why, even though I'm not at all knowledgeable about kink, I adore a story where somebody safewords out.

As I get older, I keep hoping to find stories that use this trope to explore how sex changes as you age -- "I used to enjoy that, but now it hurts my lower back," "I'm into it but it's going to take longer than that," "Honestly these days that's more trouble than it's worth; can we do something less labor-intensive?" -- but I'm not finding them. I'd love recs, if anyone has them.

I think I wasn't even in high school yet when I read James Tiptree Jr.'s "With Delicate Mad Hands," in which a woman rejected because of a facial injury finds her way to space and falls in love with an alien whose own culture considers her ears deformed and unacceptable, and the two of them have to figure things out. I have no idea whether it was actually a good story, but obviously it was formative. I remember in particular a line that said, They discovered two things that all lovers discover: first, mutual laughter, and second, nothing is enough.


Specify a date if you want; otherwise I'll just answer them whenever.

This year, in addition to the usual kinds of questions, I'd also love to get storyish prompts. Storyish meaning you never know what you might get: two sentences of a story, or a description of a story that will never exist, or a love song about how much I like that trope, or a rant about my pet peeve about that trope, or I know nothing about that canon except what I see on social media and here's what I think it might be about, or Ten Reasons Why I Love/Hate/Am Indifferent To that character, canon, or trope, or ...

As always, I'd love to hear about it if you're doing the meme too.

6. runpunkrun - "something you recently learned about yourself"
7. muccamukk - "Favourite power couple(s) and what makes them work so well together. Can be storyish or not."
8. armadillo1976 - "I'd appreciate a few words about navigating the issues of kids growing up and having the "mommy writes fanfic, mainly erotica, and mommy's using this word just because it sounds better than porn" conversation. My kiddo is only 5 now, and I have only written one story and am in the middle one the second one, but I see myself writing more, so I've been wondering how this conversation goes."
9. coffeeandink - "You took a break from fandom for a few years. Now that you're back, what's changed and what's stayed the same?"
10. mific - "what about crossovers? Have you written any?"
11.
12. marginaliana - ghost stories
13. runpunkrun - "a new thing you tried "
14.
15. china_shop - Guardian as described by someone who only knows it via social media
16. kiezh following up with - "What have you heard about MDZS/The Untamed, and what did you think of what you heard?"
17. ride4ever's birthday prompt - "Storyish prompt: for any due South fic you've written, write a prequel or sequel snippet for the fic or meta about the before-or-after that can be imagined about the fic's story arc."
18. mific - "the genderswap trope where a character's gender is changed. Yes? No? Maybe?"
19. runpunkrun - "fake dating: yes or no"
20. minoanmiss - "One of my favorite tropes is Then Let Me Be Evil. What do you think of it/have you explored it/so on and so forth?"
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24. runpunkrun - "John and Rodney in 2020"
25.
26.
27. reginagiraffe - "Hermione/Harry/Ron from Bed and Board in 2020"
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Comments

[fox]

Ha. All I’ve got on the second thing is where Remus and Bill hook up and fall asleep on the floor, and then when Remus wakes up the first thing he thinks is “FFS I’m 43 years old.”

(As *I* am now 43 and have to tell my kid there’s a limit to how long I can *sit* on the floor to *play* with him, I am happy to say the 30yo me - or however old I was when I wrote that - got it right.)

[resonant]

Hahaha! I was similarly proud of having Bender's knee not want to straighten up after he was kneeling on a cold porch floor like an idiot.

Way back in my Sentinel days I remember someone wrote a story where Blair got a leg cramp at a critical moment and Jim said, "This had better not be psychosomatic."

[stultiloquentia]

Oh wow, I love that "figure out how" set of tropes, too. The appeal is in the teamwork. I love scenes that showcase good communication...or, not even that; I love scenes that have communication as a theme, whether the characters are succeeding or fumbling. I love displays of effort. I love reading about people trying really hard to be good to each other.

I have a rec: typefortydeductions' to dwell inside a body series, an Untamed AU, set in the modern day, that requires no canon knowledge. Low plot, high porn content. It's about an established couple developing their kink repertoire, and having conversations about kink and, especially later in the series, gender. It's very tender, and very smart. There's a safewording scene.

Hm. *heroically refrains from dumping ten more Untamed stories that fit the bill in different ways into your lap*

[resonant]

I love scenes that have communication as a theme, whether the characters are succeeding or fumbling. I love displays of effort. I love reading about people trying really hard to be good to each other.

Yes! That captures a lot of what I love about it. I also love when they have to put a lot of effort into communicating against the grain of their cultural taboos; that's a particular kind of display of effort that I really like.

I've bookmarked the Untamed rec, though with that canon I'm still at the point of "that's an awful lot of unfamiliar names and I can't keep track of who's who yet."

[krait]

A/B/O doesn't work for me, either, mostly because of the biological/gender essentialism. It's frustrating sometimes, because it also contains one or two kinks that are very much my thing, but I can't read it because of the other things that go along with it.

I absolutely love 'figuring out how to have sex with this particular person,' especially in a sf/f interspecies setting! I wish there was more of it, both in canons and in fics. But I'd say that even if it was as abundant as A/B/O, so. :D

On the aging front, I do have a rec for you! patellofemoral pain syndrome by seventhstar is a Yuri on Ice fic that deals with Victor's aging (in figure skating terms; he's 27) and work-related medical issues impacting his sex life with Yuuri.


(I totally meant to do this meme, but haven't put up a post about it... oops. I guess it's going to be "Journaling January" for me again instead of "Dreamwidth December." :P )

[resonant]

Ooh, I'll bookmark that! Yuri was one of the fandoms that it seemed like it didn't exist at all when my gafiation started and by the time I started coming back it was back to being very quiet, so I don't know who any of these guys are -- but that's never stopped me before.

[krait]

Heh. :D I think all you really need to know is that both Yuuri (two Us) and Victor are top-level figure skaters from Japan and Russia respectively; Victor, who's a few years older, is Yuuri's idol and the reason Yuuri decided to pursue a skating career as a kid. Victor left skating for a year to be Yuuri's coach, but decided to come back to skating without giving up coaching.

(Yuri - one U - is a junior skater who has a bit of an envious angry rivalry with both of them, at least from his point of view.)

If you know anything about figure skating, you'll have a bit of extra info to work with, i.e. knowing that Victor's age is pushing the upper bounds of his career field, and the kinds of injuries and physical stresses figure skaters are prone to, but it's not necessary for enjoyment of the fic!

[pauraque]

I don't know anything about a/b/o, but apparently there is such a thing as a/b/o with female characters in it and even femslash a/b/o involving magical dicks, or so a friend of mine recently informed me. I dunno, I never even think of it as being a popular trope because it's not popular in any of my fandoms. I rarely ever see it.

[resonant]

Yeah, I've seen a fair number of stories where there were be-dicked female Alphas, though usually only as secondary characters. But, see, that's where I'm spending energy going, "But, OK, then, if you've put all the physical characteristics and all the social characteristics and all the misogyny onto omegas, what does it mean to say that this person is a woman?" -- and maybe the story has a really great answer for that, or maybe it doesn't, but either way, I'm now focusing on something other than the romance.

[pauraque]

Well, the answer that immediately springs to mind is that female Alphas are female if they self-identify as such. But of course if the characters are living in a world with fundamentally different biological sex characteristics and cultural gender roles, it's reasonable to ask whether the characters' subjective experiences of gender identity might be fundamentally different as well. That does seem like it would be a lot of worldbuilding to do if the point is really just to get to the porn, though.

[indywind]

^ That right there is where the a/b/o usually fails for me. I've only ever read one a/b/o tropefic that gave enough attention to the worldbuilding to at least mostly address those potentially glaring issues (Born From the Earth, an unfinished, Tony-centric Iron Man/MCU AU; it has other issues, but on the a/b/o worldbuilding front at least it makes a strong effort) and I've backbuttoned out of far more that I couldn't even get to the porn or romance in because the world did not make sense.

[resonant]

But I'm not talking about what makes them female from their point of view inside the story. I'm talking about from the point of view of the writer -- why does your world need both gender and pseudo-gender, if you're going to make both of them so similar?

This kind of thing is what distracts me from just enjoying the stories.

[minoanmiss]

I completely agree with you about a/b/o . Word.

[lunabee34]

Seconded.

[resonant]

I'm a big believer in that Joanna Russ theory that the only person who can really explain what a fantasy is about is a person that it works for, so I try to look at a/b/o as just a fantasy that belongs to somebody else rather than something that's stealing story energy that ought to be being put into stories I like

[desireearmfeldt]

Person of Interest has some "dealing with older bodies and/or physical limitations while having sex" fics (and many where it is not the main focus but comes up, because Harold Finch is both over 50 and movement-restricted due to past injury).

I'm not sure I've got any lying around bookmarked though...

[resonant]

POI is one of those fandoms where I never watched it but at some point I sorted the entire fandom by kudos and read the top half of it.

As I remember, most of the stories either nodded at Harold's injury or acknowledged it in their choice of penetration positions. I don't recall what I really wanted to read, which was Harold saying, "I have four pillows and I need to do the following thing with them" or John saying, "Can I very slowly and gently try something?" or either of them saying, "So things other than penetration are probably going to work better for us."

I do remember someone had a story involving yoga and a nod to the fact that Harold also has a typical computer user's posture and work habits. I enjoyed that.

[indywind]

I also have a bit of a "atypical and/or conflicting access needs: how do we make this work" kink like you describe -- and the commensurate frustration that there's not a simple tag for that. I found some good stuff in POI -- but as I recall, the stories that feature (versus briefly driving by) that kind of dynamic aren't necessarily the most kudos-ed (probably just because the majority of readers are looking more typical porn or romance or John's massive woobie guilt complex). I recall one with makeouts in a swimmingpool to take weightbearing out to the equation, lemme see if I can find it again. Ah, here we go: Press My Nose to the Glass Around Your Heart by Perpetual Motion.

In MCU, you might like Every Bell That Tolls Me by ThingsWithWings for the negotiation aspect; the author's summary is "Bruce gets a dom and a boyfriend, but they're not the same person."

[resonant]

Thanks for the recs! ThingsWithWings is reliably good on motivation - I'll look forward to that one.

[indywind]

Oh! and, it's been a little while since I read it, but I think Indecorous by Basingstoke (Sherlock TV, AU early in canon--this story's Mary Morstan is not the canon Mary at all) might come near the mark. "In which John learns to balance a kinky girlfriend, an asexual boyfriend, a ten-inch cock, his sister, the neighbours, his friends, and his blog. Some are more balanced than others."

I concur about ThingsWithWings; I've found several fics I liked for the motivation/negotiation aspect from them, in various fandoms. Some other authors who hit that note:

Topaz. You might like their ST:AOS fic Shining on the Quay, AU after the first movie, in which Pike's difficult recovery from the Romulan brain slug is made more ...interesting by Jim Kirk. The companion story Every Morning After the End of the World by igrokspock, is gen and focused on awesome women secondary characters, so might not scratch your romance itch, but in my mind it's part of the same story. And it makes a nice segue to add the author to the list:

igrokspok. If the obstacles to negotiate being cultural, rather than physical, appeals, you might like their A Profound Coming Loose (ST:TOS/AOS) "Amanda is ready for sex. Sarek isn't. It's not an easy conversation, but it's not a hard one either." Or Surak and Socrates Want You to Masturbate "Spock needs sex advice [for his relationship with Uhura]. Gaila is happy to provide it, and she doesn't see why Spock shouldn't get himself off while he listens. Good thing logic is on her side."

the_ragnarok has a bunch of d/s-flavored fic in POI fandom that hit the 'how do we make this work' angle pretty nicely for me, mostly more for polyamory (John/Harold/Zoe or John/Harold/Grace mostly) and kink negotiation than for physical accommodation, but there's some of that too. They're pretty good at tagging so you can skim through and look for what seems appealing (or squicky). Maybe try make them into prayers, "John wants to kneel, but he's too tired for the accompanying activities [with Zoe]. Harold to the rescue!" and others in that series.

[resonant]

I'm collecting so many great recs! Maybe I should rant more often.

[jesse_the_k]

Thanks for these recs!

Not surprisingly, since I have to deal with accommodation in my daily life, I want it wearing spangles and porny in my fic.

[j00j]

I love bomberqueen17's Goblin Emperor "continuing education" series because the empress to be does research to ensure their mutual first time won't be awful. https://archiveofourown.org/users/bomberqueen17/pseuds/bomberqueen17/works?fandom_id=2812389

Trying to think about sex as you age stories... This Black Sails series does some of that; the characters are mostly dealing with trauma that occurred while they were apart, but also aging. https://archiveofourown.org/series/746322

Sex with aliens and kink offer fantastic opportunities for figuring out something new, for sure. Good Omens also offers some interesting opportunities in that direction-- angels figuring out how the hell sex in human bodies (or bodies that can be whatever they want) works. See also: Venom.

[wrabbit]

Thank you for this Black Sails rec!

[j00j]

oh, another one for figuring out how to have sex with each other-- ellen_fremedon's "Need to Know"-- Captain Jack Harkness/Ensign Naraht the Horta. https://archiveofourown.org/works/165017 (this came up in household conversation today, as it does, and I thought of your question)

[indywind]

Ooh, thanks for reminding me of that one! ::goes back to bookmark::

[resonant]

Oh, I think the last time I read that one I hadn't actually seen the Horta episode.

[resonant]

Oh, that Goblin Emperor sex ed series was wonderful. I should go make sure I commented on that. I loved the book so much, and the stories were worthy of it, which is high praise.

Venom has some really good alienish sex stories but not as many as you might hope. I should probably look deeper into Good Omens; established relationship stories (which are mostly what I see there) kind of bore me. I'll check out the Black Sails series -- yet another fandom I missed and keep meaning to look into.

rec

[light_of_summer]

FYI, Bomberqueen17 also has an older-people negotiation and sex scene late in And Go Home, which is a story that falls well into her long Star Wars sequel trilogy series Home Out in the Wind. I liked the whole series a lot.

Note that the main series focus is on Poe, Finn, and Rey. The older-people sex scene is between secondary characters, but good ones!

Link to the series: https://archiveofourown.org/series/468505

[runpunkrun]

Oh man, "We're going to have to figure out how to have sex with each other" is almost always what I'm looking for in developing relationship stories. Whenever a first time fic goes straight to anal, I'm like, "Hey, aren't we going to talk about this first?"

[resonant]

Yes! Or you have an exchange that goes "What do you want?" "You" or "What do you like?" "Everything."

Somewhere I read a Leverage story where "What do you want?" was answered with "I'd really like to get my mouth on you," and that wasn't in depth but it was very nice just the same.

[wrabbit]

Agree about a/b/o, and I also love stories with negotiation and sensitivity to age and bodies. <3 I like that line from the alien story.

[resonant]

Erica Jong's Fear of Flying was somewhat new when I was beginning to look for sex writing, and her fantasy about the "zipless fuck" is precisely the opposite of what I like. I say bring on the zippers.

[jesse_the_k]

More zippers! Also corset lacing, and prosthetic harnesses &c!

[kitewithfish]

but there's a range of tropes that basically boil down to "We're going to have to figure out how to have sex with each other."

Ooooh, I also love this. I think I most often see this tagged as "negotiations" on AO3, tho, of course, there's a lot of cross pollination with other elements (like, diplomacy, etc). As I went to search for the correct term, I ended up finding a new story to follow (as well as some of the links in the comments!) so I'm already delighted that you've brought this trope-set to the surface.

It also helps to pinpoint why I am so picked about ABO content - because, upon reflection, it seems like most of my interest in ABO (and, to some extent, tropes like arranged marriage or soulmates) stories come along the lines of "Well, now that we've had sex, we're going to have to figure out how to have a intimacy and trust with each other."

[resonant]

"Well, now that we've had sex, we're going to have to figure out how to have a intimacy and trust with each other."

Another thing I like really really a whole lot!

[indywind]

Paian's several SG:SG1 Aliens Made Them Do It fics are brilliant for this. Or for figuring out how to adapt intimacy and trust that already existed, to now include sex and/or romance.

[resonant]

Oh, yes, I re-read those a few months back and they were just as good as I remembered.

[signedwapo]

Oh my lord, I love the negotiation/awkward sex trope so much it's dragged me out of deep lurkerdom with a few recs for you!
This one by snickfic features Loki and Valkyrie. How to bang an icecube with body issues, basically: https://archiveofourown.org/works/20680337
A bunch of the Pacific Rim fics with Newton Geiszler/Hermann Gottlieb, but it's very late and my eyes are crossing. Also I can't seem to find about half of my AO3 recs now?? Is very weird. I could have sworn I had way more fics bookmarked, but ugh, not anymore I guess >:(

[resonant]

I'll look for those.