Anyone have a deep understanding of a mindset that's Slytherin-and-yet-not-evil? I'm looking for insights. I'm on IRC (squidge.org) in the #quaffle channel, or on AIM as resonant8.
Go here (http://www.witchfics.org/riley/ptq/) and read the Blaise stuff. ^_^ I'd explain it myself, but sadly I have to get off the computer /right now/ and I won't be back for hours. Let me know if you want me to explain later.
I have really always disliked the strega concept in this story, and though I think the Slytherin politics are interesting, they're too heavily colored by the strega to make much sense to me in the context of the wider world. :/
*shrug* The strega thing works rather nicely for me, given my personal understanding of magic and how it works, but I can see that it might not work for everyone.
As for Slytherin worldviews, the important thing to remember is that for them, the end really does justify the means. The Slytherin sees what needs to be done, and does it. They also have an extremely high regard for the importance of reputation: it's more important to appear powerful than to actually be powerful, a lot of the time. Although being underestimated has its rewards as well....
I don't know how useful I can be - or even what time it is for you now - but I'm always willing to be a sounding board. I'd have to go download AIM first though, because I don't have anything but MSN installed. :)
There is a fantastic story written by Jedi Boadicea entitled "Secrets in Silence", written from the POV of a Slytherin and set immediately after the end of Voldemort War I. "Silent Harker" is a strong, compassionate character (although subtly so), and bears no petty evilness. You can find it at the Sugar Quill (http://www.sugarquill.net/).
aaagh!! get thee to my timezone! now I'm all full of ideas and tortured 'cause I can't discuss them.
There are two ways Slytherin are characterised in canon, and those two characterisations are contradictory. The house itself is characterised as prizing ambition for greatness. Slytherins themselves, though, are characterised as weak, pathetic, petty non-achievers-- the very opposite of their "ideal". A great deal of Snape and Draco fiction is attempting to reconcile the contradictions, either by casting Slytherins as misunderstood for their ideals, or casting them as somehow diverted towards (or by) Voldemort's brand of greatness. If the writer isn't careful, it comes off as either revisionist history or apologia. The challenge in writing Slytherin-as-not-evil, anyway, is to reconcile the canon ideal of Slytherin with its actual examples of Slytherin reality.
My personal bent is, to go back to Ollivander's in the first book, that Voldemort, Salazar and co did terrible but great things, although I think terrifying is a better word. Likewise, Snape: terrifying, but great. (That comes more from Alan Rickman than canon per se, though.) Likewise, Lucius really has 'terrifying, but great' down. Draco seems to be getting it down, as well-- he's not afraid to say or do terrible things, which is the beginning of a kind of greatness.
For the not-evil thing, I go towards the snake as a symbol: it won't attack you if you provoke it, but if you provoke it, its response is swift and deadly. You can cast canon Slytherins as a nest of snakes who are constantly being provoked, both from without (by expectations and treatment, etc) and within (by Voldemort and Death Eaters, in order to have their babies grow up deadly and vicious). In an unprovoked state, the snake will never be warm and fuzzy, but goes about its business without bothering anyone, and will even let you hold it, if you're warm and it's well-fed. ;)
The other phrase that rings true for me, from a story somewhere, is "fiercely partisan"-- I think it sums up a plausible slytherin mindset in both good times and bad.
Also, the canon ideal/actual split I mentioned earlier... hm. Could it be that the ideal is so high, it is rarely succeeded? Whereas all Hufflepuffs need to do, to be Good Little Hufflepuffs, is work hard, Slytherin would have the highest failure rate of all houses, because greatness is not easily won, although many have need of it. You could do something with that-- the idea that houses have failures who become the opposite of their ideals. Peter Pettigrew is a good example. Students are placed into the house which will encourage the trait they need most-- ambition, courage, etc -- and they either succeed or fail at developing it.
Ultimately, I think, Gryffindor and Slytherin are exactly the same, except Gryffindor prizes the means above all things, and will sacrifice the end to it, while Slytherin prizes the end and will sacrifice the means to it. And that covers both good and bad Slytherin actions.
... and I'll stop there, or I'll be going on all night.
I just got online and found an email from you, then saw that you'd friended me, so I'm dropping in to say hi - and I'm happy to hear you like my filks!
As for what Luthien said about my take on Slyths, the relevant fic is Two Worlds and In Between (http://fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=705541). Upper-class Slyths as the soldier ants of their society - a rather fucked-up society it is, too, and due for a wizarding civil war in the late 19th Century when some of them invent the Killing Curse and decided to take direct action against the Muggle population explosion. If you choose to venture into this story, I hope it's a favorable reading experience for you. :)
Another rec for a complex and tasty perspective on Slytherins: Arithmancy and Flowers (http://fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=774753), a Young Snape fic by martianhousecat.
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Date: 12/9/02 06:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 12/9/02 09:00 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 12/10/02 12:53 am (UTC)As for Slytherin worldviews, the important thing to remember is that for them, the end really does justify the means. The Slytherin sees what needs to be done, and does it. They also have an extremely high regard for the importance of reputation: it's more important to appear powerful than to actually be powerful, a lot of the time. Although being underestimated has its rewards as well....
hm
Date: 12/9/02 07:18 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 12/9/02 09:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 12/10/02 11:21 am (UTC)Hope that's remotely helpful. :)
-bluecat (http://hard-luck.org/)
(no subject)
Date: 12/11/02 04:46 am (UTC)There are two ways Slytherin are characterised in canon, and those two characterisations are contradictory. The house itself is characterised as prizing ambition for greatness. Slytherins themselves, though, are characterised as weak, pathetic, petty non-achievers-- the very opposite of their "ideal". A great deal of Snape and Draco fiction is attempting to reconcile the contradictions, either by casting Slytherins as misunderstood for their ideals, or casting them as somehow diverted towards (or by) Voldemort's brand of greatness. If the writer isn't careful, it comes off as either revisionist history or apologia. The challenge in writing Slytherin-as-not-evil, anyway, is to reconcile the canon ideal of Slytherin with its actual examples of Slytherin reality.
My personal bent is, to go back to Ollivander's in the first book, that Voldemort, Salazar and co did terrible but great things, although I think terrifying is a better word. Likewise, Snape: terrifying, but great. (That comes more from Alan Rickman than canon per se, though.) Likewise, Lucius really has 'terrifying, but great' down. Draco seems to be getting it down, as well-- he's not afraid to say or do terrible things, which is the beginning of a kind of greatness.
For the not-evil thing, I go towards the snake as a symbol: it won't attack you if you provoke it, but if you provoke it, its response is swift and deadly. You can cast canon Slytherins as a nest of snakes who are constantly being provoked, both from without (by expectations and treatment, etc) and within (by Voldemort and Death Eaters, in order to have their babies grow up deadly and vicious). In an unprovoked state, the snake will never be warm and fuzzy, but goes about its business without bothering anyone, and will even let you hold it, if you're warm and it's well-fed. ;)
The other phrase that rings true for me, from a story somewhere, is "fiercely partisan"-- I think it sums up a plausible slytherin mindset in both good times and bad.
Also, the canon ideal/actual split I mentioned earlier... hm. Could it be that the ideal is so high, it is rarely succeeded? Whereas all Hufflepuffs need to do, to be Good Little Hufflepuffs, is work hard, Slytherin would have the highest failure rate of all houses, because greatness is not easily won, although many have need of it. You could do something with that-- the idea that houses have failures who become the opposite of their ideals. Peter Pettigrew is a good example. Students are placed into the house which will encourage the trait they need most-- ambition, courage, etc -- and they either succeed or fail at developing it.
Ultimately, I think, Gryffindor and Slytherin are exactly the same, except Gryffindor prizes the means above all things, and will sacrifice the end to it, while Slytherin prizes the end and will sacrifice the means to it. And that covers both good and bad Slytherin actions.
... and I'll stop there, or I'll be going on all night.
*waving hello*
Date: 12/18/02 10:58 pm (UTC)As for what Luthien said about my take on Slyths, the relevant fic is Two Worlds and In Between (http://fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=705541). Upper-class Slyths as the soldier ants of their society - a rather fucked-up society it is, too, and due for a wizarding civil war in the late 19th Century when some of them invent the Killing Curse and decided to take direct action against the Muggle population explosion. If you choose to venture into this story, I hope it's a favorable reading experience for you. :)
Another rec for a complex and tasty perspective on Slytherins: Arithmancy and Flowers (http://fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=774753), a Young Snape fic by