Filial obedience, and how to avoid it

[resonant]

Here at the beginning of the holiday season -- that annual celebration of human relationships -- is the time when I want to say:

People on my friends list. I like you. I want you to quit giving your parents permission to browbeat you.

Those of you with utterly, inescapably toxic parents probably already know that most advice isn't useful to you, including what I'm about to say. But those of you whose parents are a little critical or interfering but not actually committable whackjobs, listen up.



There are about ten people on my flist who are having the exact same argument with one or both of their parents. The argument goes like this.

Parent: Your finances are a mess. (Or fill in the criticism of your choice: Your house is dirty. Your beloved is kind of immature. Your kids need jackets on. You're fat. Your best friend ... isn't she a little ... mannish? Such mood swings, dear; you should really do something about them.)

You [defensively]: No, they're not. Yes, they are, but there's a good reason for it. Look, everything's fine. I've got it all under control. Listen, let me explain to you about the finances -- see, buying a house is a really excellent investment in the housing market here, and our banker feels that the level of debt isn't too much for our income -- see, I'll show you the letter that says so -- and in the last year we've reduced our credit card debt by more than ten thousand dollars, and so we ...

Parent: Ten thousand dollars?! You owed ten thousand dollars?! Why, that's criminal. In my day, we didn't buy things we couldn't afford.

You [testily]: Well, maybe in your day you didn't have student loans from law school, huh? Maybe in your day you were living with Gramps out on the farm insteaad of trying to keep an apartment in San Francisco -- you have no idea what the rent prices are out here, and --

Parent: Well, perhaps you should live within your means, dear. You eat out at least three times a week, and --

You: Shut up! You can't control my life! Just mind your own business!

Right. Now. Here's something to remember:

When you give your parents a lot of information on your life, what you're really doing is trying to convince them that you're right, because what you really want is to hear that they approve of what you're doing with your life.

You've got to cut that out.

You can't make them approve of you.

Stop asking for their approval. Stop giving them ammunition.

"But what do I say when they say those awful things, then?"

Respond to all criticism and personal questions with vague answers that sound agreeable but are basically meaningless, and then quickly change the subject, ideally to something you know they can't shut up about. (Did you move around a lot when Dad was in the Navy? Is Branson really worth the trip? Did you get good service on the plane ride here?)

Now. Here's the way that conversation ought to go.

Parent: Your finances are a mess.

You: How interesting. You want tea or Coke to drink?

Parent: Really, dear, you could just drink water, and then maybe your grocery bills wouldn't be so high and you wouldn't be in so much debt.

You: You may be right. I'm having tea; sure I can't get you anything? Well, sit down and make yourself at home.

Parent: Well, your living room is certainly a mess.

You: [light laugh] That may be. Is Great-Uncle Horace still dating that showgirl from Duluth?

Comments

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

I'm here to testify (hence the icon) that this is all true. A friend of mine from college pointed out a number of years ago that she told her parents a great deal less than either of her sisters did, and thus her relationship with them was a lot easier than her sisters' was; and at the same time, while my relationship with my own parents was better than my friend's sisters' relationship with theirs, it wasn't as pleasant and relaxing as hers. But, magically, when I stopped giving them so much information, all that changed.

And my parents aren't even especially of the interfering/critical type. They genuinely want to help (which has not been true always of my grandparents or aunts and uncles of any generation). But the line between help and micromanagement is fuzzy and mobile, of course.

It's hard, at the age of 22, to realize that you don't have to tell your parents when, for example, you get a speeding ticket. Leaving town for the weekend and not telling them? Ack! (Memo to 24-year-old self: you have a cell phone. It doesn't matter where you are, when they call.) These days, my job search is prolonged and frustrating, and when they ask about it I tell them yeah, a few irons in the fire, I'm getting through it. It's incredibly relaxing.

In short: WORD.

[amireal.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I WILL tell them if I'm flying though. That's just-- to me a smart move.

But yeah, I'm going to random city someplace? They don't need to know. My land line fowards to my cell after a certain number of rings anyway.

[buddleia.livejournal.com]

I should be grateful. My parental conversations generally go:
Ma: You should [insert annoying criticism and advice here]
Me: You remember that discussion we had last week?
Me: The one where I said it took me fifty years to stop my mum giving me unwanted advice?
Me: That one. How is she?
Ma: She's fine, you should visit her.
Me: I will. Tea?
Ma: Yes please.
Me: Ok, then?
Ma: Ok, ok. Point bloody taken.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

[laughing so hard!]

I don't know if my mother ever had problems getting along with her parents; she's never mentioned it. My father's father died when he was a kid (and the general family sentiment on that is "and good riddance") but I gather that his mother was kind of a terror.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

I wish I'd seen that yesterday. Might have saved me the agony of sitting here, hoping the door is barricaded well enough and not answering the phone.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Oh dear. [pats you]

[maryavatar.livejournal.com]

My mother and I get along pretty well. Of course, she lives 700 miles away and I rarely see her more than once a year...

I have two unmarried sisters over 30, so she's probably concentrating all her parental disapproval on them. I'm a little horrified that all it takes to be the 'good' daughter is to get married and give birth.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

Yep, I think that one key to familial harmony is distance. My parents live 2000 miles away, so we get along really well.

[neery.livejournal.com]

It can be so hard to just shut up, though. My mother is pretty much completely wonderful, and we get along perfectly well most of the time, so that makes it even more difficult to remember to just keep my mouth shut about certain topics. It's like my brain just shuts down, and suddenly, instead of "By the way, I passed that anatomy test", what's coming out of my mouth is "By the way, I almost failed that anatomy test by a point", and we're off. Because, yeah, I could have shown up at the lecture a little more often, but I passed, so who the hell cares? Except my mother, that is.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

The older I get, the less I explain. Basically I only offer explanations to people who have a legitimate right to have input into the decision (which usually means only the spouse). Everybody else gets "Oh, I can't make it." "Why?" "Because I'm afraid it's impossible."

[evilprettykitty.livejournal.com]

People often ask me how I can stand to live with my mother at my age (nearly 30) but it's because she DOESN'T ask about finacial stuff. We don't talk about and thus get along like best friends.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I think I could probably live with my mom; we'd have to do something about her desire to control every bite that everybody on the planet eats, but I have a strategy for that already.

My dad would be trickier, because he and I both feel that we know the most reasonable, most sensible, most efficient way to do everything, and we will tell you.

I hope I will have that habit under control by the time the kidlet is 30!

[jacquez.livejournal.com]

RepreSENT!

I've gotten good at not giving my interfering, insane father ammunition about my personal life (though it's easy; all he wants is for me to have babies, and that's an easy topic to skip away from).

My sisters and I have a harder time with his belief that anti-woman government policies don't matter, though. Oh, politics and feminism, you...uh...hairy beasts, you.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I do have trouble with what to do about horrible political comments and casual racism -- on the one hand, I don't feel right letting things pass without comment, but on the other hand, commenting violates my general policy of "don't dignify it with a response, and don't invite discussion on it."

My strategy on that one, which I'm not 100% happy with, is rolled eyes and a "Oh, honestly, now."

[cimmerians.livejournal.com]

Well-said, Resonant! I'm of mixed parentage (crazy Mum, sane Dad, thankfully not together for lo these almost-forty years), and I've had nothing at all to do with The Crazed One for the past fourteen years. She doesn't know where I live or what I do or how to find me, because down in Hell they have horror movies where the Devil gets posessed by my Mum. That bad.

You wouldn't believe the flak I get for this, even from folks whose parents are *horrible*-- "How can you just not talk to her? How can you just cut her out of your life? What's wrong with you?"

Here's what's wrong with me: I don't like wasting time. Wasting time is the closest I get to 'sin' in my world. And playing passive-aggressive guilt-trip bullshit manipulation games with my crazy parent is the biggest waste of my time I can think of.

So: thanks for saying what you said, and for your excellent and modest proposal to promote greater sanity. Think of all the slash folks could write if they weren't distracted by parental disapproval! :-)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

down in Hell they have horror movies where the Devil gets posessed by my Mum

[feeling a vague sense of guilt for laughing so hard at your misfortune]

I think there are times when, barring the magical transformation of someone into someone else altogether, the best you can do is choose not to go back into that burning building.

. Think of all the slash folks could write if they weren't distracted by parental disapproval!

Yes! Absolutely! It's another step in the direction of Saving The World Through Smut.

[cereta.livejournal.com]

You know, one of the things I had to do, because my mother is not so much controlling as she has a tendency to forget I'm not a 22-year-old, single grad student who can devote her holiday to cleaning up her house for other visitors and whose schedule doesn't need accommodating, is just limit the length of my visits. I no longer spend a week at her house around Christmas. Instead, I go exactly when my spouse can go and leave exactly when he needs to. It's made the last two holidays so much less upsetting for me. And I think it's a transition every adult needs to make sooner or later, that there comes a point when you're allowed to not have them make all the decisions about your time anymore. You're allowed to stay home for a holiday if that's what you want.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Oh, I was so happy when the kidlet was born and we decided that babies needed to spend Christmas at home with their families, so we could stop the cross-country Christmas flights!

Of course, eventually it goes full circle, and you end up traveling when you don't want to travel not because you're presumed to be unable to cook a turkey for yourself but because that's when your mom happens to have her hip-replacement surgery scheduled ...

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Im' trying to figure out how much this applies to me or not and realizing that I think I've slowly started growing up in the last couple of years and done that unconsciously. I mean, when my dad and stepmom came a couple of weeks ago, my house wasn't clean and I didn't kill myself trying to do it.

Of course my family lives on another continent, so the encounters are far apart but all the more intense because of that.

Now only to get my husband to learn all of this :-)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

the encounters are far apart but all the more intense because of that.

Yes. I get along pretty well with my parents, but sometimes I wonder if my relationship with my in-laws would be smoother if we saw each other for a weekend once a month instead of for two weeks twice a year. But then there's the issue I mentioned above, where there are things that I can let slide twice a year but would have to deal with if we saw them more often.

[wolfiekins.livejournal.com]

Brilliant advice. Your analysis is spot on, truly. I'm certainly going to try this with the parental unit...

How interesting, you may be right!

*grins*

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Well, I hope it works for you!

Sometimes I wonder if maybe it's a relief for the parents, too: "Oh, good, she's probably continuing to make stupid decisions, but at least I don't have to hear about them any more!"

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

I don't generally have too much trouble with getting unwanted advice from my folks, because yes, that's a good working strategy. *g*

My problem is that between us we have four parents living in four different states, none closer than 500 miles away, all of whom want to see us at least once a year. Which isn't unreasonable, but is expensive and time-consuming...

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's difficult. The world is too damned big, isn't it?

Now that I think of it, the people on my friendslist are the only people under 30 (but over 8) that I have contact with from day to day. Most people my age have figured this out by trial and error, or else their parents have died or they've cut off all contact, but it's something younger adults are still struggling with.

[shrift.livejournal.com]

My mother, father, and grandmother have a tendency to forget that I'm an employed adult with a college degree, no outstanding debt, a car owner, and a world traveller. Maybe now that I live in Chicago things will be different, but somehow I doubt it.

I just found out this morning that my aunt and uncle are coming to Thanksgiving, and that I get to share the house with them and my parents. I have the feeling that I'll be grabbing my laptop and fleeing to my sister's house a lot this weekend.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

My daughter is seven, and I have a tendency to forget that she does a perfectly adequate job of keeping track of her own bladder. So I have a little more sympathy for parents who do this now!

I have the feeling that I'll be grabbing my laptop and fleeing to my sister's house a lot this weekend.

My in-laws recently moved to a new house that's walking distance from two coffee shops, and our relationship got so much smoother! I've tried to phrase it as "I need some alone time every day" rather than "Sometimes I just have to get away from y'all and your nuttiness."

[crysothemis.livejournal.com]

Wow, am I really the only one whose parents honestly never ever do this kind of thing? It just floors me that parents could be like that.

*takes notes so as not to do this to her own kids*

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

My parents have never been really awful, and they've gotten even better over the years. But, you know, some people are naturally more meddlesome than others ... and some of those meddlesome people do spawn ...

[frostfire-17.livejournal.com]

I get along great with my parents (my dad especially). My mom has a tendency toward micromanaging, but she knows it's there and she usually recognizes herself doing it. I think my relationship with them will be perfect...once my mother is no longer running anything (i.e., money, insurance, plane flights, dentist appointments, etc.) for me.

The amusing thing about my great relationship with my mom and dad shows up in many, many, getting-to-know-you conversations:
Me: My mother's a minister.
Other Person: Oh? [slightly taken aback; this is sometimes because I do not, at first glance, come across as a Christian, and sometimes, "wait, woman minister?"] So, are you Christian, then?
Me: No, I'm an agnostic.
Other Person: Oh, does that make it hard for you to get along? (alternative: Oh, that must make it hard to get along.)
Me: Um, no. We have a great relationship.
Other Person: [surprised, and/or politely disbelieving] Really?
Me: Really. No, really. Um, my dad's kind of vaguely agnostic too? No, they get along great, too, what with having been married for 25 years...

Also fun is the my-dad-was-the-stay-at-home-parent conversation. And then, of course, my dad is just awesome in general; you've probably seen some of my posts about his wackiness.

*looks up* Wow, that was long. Um, not to spam you about my parents or anything. *g*

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

That's so cool! I'm beginning to think that some people are great parents of babies but not other ages, and others are great parents of kids but not other ages (I myself was only a tolerable parent of a baby) -- and some fortunate few are great parents of adults.

[amalthia]

taking your advice home with me this thanksgiving weekend. :)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I do hope it works for you!

Of course, one problem with this advice is that you have to come prepared with other things to talk about. I've found a grandchild very useful in this respect, but for those without a grandchild, an old photo album makes a decent substitute.

[ranalore.livejournal.com]

This is so, so true. Of course, you might have to brace yourself for attempted guilt-trips because you don't tell them things, especially if you have siblings who do continue to share everything in their lives. That's easy enough to circumvent, though.

Parent: We never talk anymore! Your sister shares more than you do!

Me: Oh, how is Sister Eros?

Parent: She's fine. You--

Me: How about the kids?

Parent: ::triggered into grandparent mode:: They're great! Just last week, I talked to Niecelet Eros and....

This is how all my conversations with my parents go, which is why I don't have many of them, but it's worth a bit of verbal dancing to have them out of my business.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Yes! You have to have a strategy!

The spouse and I will actually have a conversation beforehand and come up with one or two non-emotionally-loaded things on which we can ask for advice. ("OK, I absolutely am not willing to listen to your dad go on about how we haven't fixed up the house; how about if you ask him if he knows anything useful about getting promoted at work?")

[raqs.livejournal.com]

You have performed a valuable public service.

Rest upon your laurels.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I wonder if any parents of adults read the post and went, "Hey!"

[miss-pryss.livejournal.com]

Mr. Smarty-Pants (my spouse, and son of a veritable harpy) has this kind of agreeable evasion down to an ART FORM. I have seen it work wonders.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

It's really amazing, isn't it? Only the most determined meddler can really stand against it -- and only if they admit they're meddling.

[saturnalia.livejournal.com]

Huh. Being only 19 years old, I have a feeling I may still have this all ahead of me. My relationship with my parents has been a little strained over the years (with my dad in particular), but now that I'm living away from home thinks have improved exponentially. Oh well- I'll just have to try and keep this post in mind for the future. *grin*

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I suppose that if you had a parent who was really determined to Have A Talk With You on some subject, you wouldn't be able to shake them loose this easily. But in reality, an amazing number of them think they're "just making conversation" -- and another big chunk of them know they're meddling but want to pretend they're just making conversation, and so there's no way for them to object to the change of subject without admitting what they're doing.

[clauclauclaudia]

I don't know the specifics of any issues on your friends list, but I must say... SING IT! Thank you for the timely reminder. :)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

We're lucky -- we always spend Thanksgiving with one set of friends and Christmas with a different set, and see the families at less emotionally loaded times of year. This conversation has reminded me that I need to tell my friends how happy that makes me!

[paceus.livejournal.com]

I agree that this is a valuable public service.

The thread about giving a reason when you're declining an invitation reminds me of Clues for the Clueless: Dogbert's Big Book of Manners and the part in which Dogbert gives guys hints regarding whether the girl is interested or not when she declines an invitation. The trick was that if her reason was general but likely ("I'm really busy that day") she's interested, but if her reason is specific but improbable she's probably not interested. I think the example was, "I have to wash my cat."

When I read it I thought it was hilarious, and still kind of do, but of course you could find out if the person you're asking out is interested by the enthusiasm of the reply: "Oh, no, I can't make it on Friday! But how about Saturday?" versus "I'm sorry, but I don't think I can make it. Thanks for asking, though!"

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Of course, the other half of the etiquette challenge is accepting a "No, I can't," without rudely demanding, "Why not?"

A friend and I once compiled a list of the craziest excuses we could think of:

I'd love to, but ...

... I did my own thing and now I've got to undo it.
... I have to go to the post office to see if I'm still wanted.
... I prefer to remain an enigma.
... I'm trying to cut down.
... The man on television told me to say tuned.

[kudra2324.livejournal.com]

excellent points. i think it's really all about managing your own expectations. i might wish over and over and over again that when i mention a doctor's appointment to my father i'll get a response other than "doctors don't know anything" but wishing it does not make it so. it's when i remember to not mention the appointment because i know that the chances of getting the response i want are roughly zero that things improve :).

(also, i second everyone on the distance. one of my first moments of revelation when i got to college was that if one of my parents went off on some kind of tirade all i had to do was hang up the phone. they couldn't exactly teleport 500 miles to continue talking.)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Especially useful for those who are cursed with parents who will follow them into another room to continue an argument. [shudders at the thought]

i think it's really all about managing your own expectations.

Exactly! Which is, I think, why it's so difficult to do; it means you stop wishing the other person would change and instead you change yourself.

[doll-revolution.livejournal.com]

a slight variation on this, designed more to amuse yourself. (but you have to be able to project ABSOLUTE SINCERETY)

parent: omg, this place is a mess!
you: (nodding soberly)i know, i'm such a pig
parent: if you'd just tried, you could clean a room a day! but you never apply youself!
you: (sighing) i know! i'm such a slacker! i never finish anything!
parent: you're smarter than this!
you: actually? i think i'm too stupid. really.

(okay, *i* find it amusing, anyway)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

This reminds me of an article I once read about what to do if your relatives give you trouble about your weight. It recommended looking at them with big, sad eyes and saying, "I'm so sorry you can't love me the way I am."

[panisdead.livejournal.com]

I discovered this method of interaction several years back and support it heartily, although I'm now experimenting with what happens when you come out the other side: what happens if I gradually reintroduce specific detail? Can they handle it, or does it become a crowbar with which to beat me about the head?

So far it's going okay, although it might be going better if I was not afraid to make it explicit: "Folks, I will tell you what's going on with me only on condition that you not harass me about all minor decisions in the process."

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I suppose I've tried this to an extent -- I mean, I'll tell them what's going on, and I'll tell them what decision I've/we've made, but usually I won't share the reasons for those decisions unless I'm looking for input.

Which sometimes I am. Just, you know, I want advice on what I ask for advice on (e.g. how you make a pie crust that isn't tough) and not on what I don't ask for advice on (e.g. whether now is a good time to stop at that traffic light right there).