Boundaries

[resonant]

Creepy behavior, observed and remembered.

The kidlet has a friend named Robin. They only see her at the pool, so every Saturday they spend the afternoon on inner tubes giggling about whatever it is that twelve-year-olds giggle about.



The tubing area is an oblong with a slow current in it, just about wide enough for one inner tube. Last Saturday, I looked up from my book and saw the kids in their floats at one end of the oblong, not moving, and an older man I didn't know standing in the chest-deep water talking to them.

Something about the body language of the situation troubled me, so I left my book behind and went over to talk with them. We chatted briefly about nothing much (what time we were going to leave, etc.).

What must have triggered my attention was that the guy was standing in such a way that they couldn't get around him. That was why they were floating in one place despite the current. He backed up out of earshot as soon as he saw me speak to them.

I asked, "Was he bothering you?" The kids exchanged a glance, and then the kidlet said, "Robin knows him. His wife is a friend of Robin's mother."

I made a good solid eye contact with the guy. I was quite prepared to smile back if he smiled, or to go over and make small talk if he spoke. As he did neither, I just gave him a nice long look, the kind that says, "If the police ask me to, I'll be able to give them a good description of you."

After that, I kept an eye on him -- enough to catch him looking at me several times. Keeping his eye on me.

Hours later, when we left, he was in the hot tub between us and the locker room. He said to Robin, "I'm going to tell your mother on you that you wouldn't talk to me."

On the way home, the kidlet told me that Robin doesn't like the guy because: "He keeps trying to set up dates between her and his five-year-old son." I swallowed all sorts of thoughts about how profoundly creepy this was, but I did give the kidlet the No One Is Entitled To Your Attention, And You Don't Have To Talk To Anyone You Don't Want To Talk To discussion.

Robin's mother is kind of a train wreck. For instance, I'm pretty sure she doesn't know my name, but she's kept me apprised in detail of getting and canceling various restraining orders against her ex-boyfriend, who was also her landlord.

Today, as she and I and the kids were walking to the locker room, she told me (out of nowhere; I hadn't brought it up) "Pete, the one who was talking to the girls last week? You don't need to worry about him. He and his wife are good Catholics."

As I was telling this story to the spouse tonight, it occurred to me that by saying that where Robin could hear her, the mother was basically telling her, "You don't get to opt out of spending time with someone because he makes you uncomfortable."

When I was a little girl, I had Tickling Uncles. I didn't like to be tickled, and I said, No, no no, but of course when someone tickles you, you laugh, whether you're actually enjoying yourself or not, so every time we met, there would be tickling.

My mother told me I should say, "Uncle Whoever, you're a big tease."

Did you ever think about all the ways that people tell girls that they don't get to draw boundaries?

Comments

[nestra]

Did you ever think about all the ways that people tell girls that they don't get to draw boundaries?

Smile! You are obligated to look pretty and cheerful even when you're not! Your mood is the business of every stranger who passes you on the street!

[carolyn_claire]

Hell, yes.

[neotoma]

He and his wife are good Catholics

I was *raised* Catholic, and let me say, that someone thinks a person is a 'Good Catholic' is no guarantee of *anything*. Frankly, given what some people think qualifies for that description would make me look at the person so described with a weather eye.

As to girls and boundaries, I don't often want to think about it, because fury isn't good for my blood pressure.

[slodwick]

Your icon has never been more appropriate. *kermitface*

[greyeyes]

Huh. My father was raised a "good Catholic" and he doesn't back little girls into corners to get them to talk to him whether he does or doesn't know them, especially without their parents around. That was really creepy of him and totally dismissive of the mom. Not cool:(

[mific]

Yeah, definitely creepy. I remember when I was about 12 going to a big annual fair (kind of like a state fair I guess) with a friend and my Dad dropped us off - we were to call to be collected when we'd had our fill. Those were more innocent days, e.g. we biked or walked to school alone, no-one drove us. We called Dad, later on, but the phone was engaged and stupidly we began to panic. A man passing by offered us a lift home and, stupidity no. 2, we accepted it. I recall having some vague notion about not accepting sweets from strangers, and really we knew we shouldn't accept rides from strangers either, but we were very naieve and no-one taught kids specifically about all that back then. In the end nothing too bad happened - maybe as two of us was more than he could manage. He put his hand on my knee at one point, briefly, and I was intensely anxious all the way home, suddenly well aware that this was a serious mistake, but he did take us home and drop us off. Once home there were tears and tellings-off, but they could see we'd frightened ourselves and learned a lesson. I'm glad kids are better warned and educated these days, but sad and angry that it's so necessary.

[mecurtin]

I have never met any of these people, and almost certainly never will. HOWEVER, I have an internet diagnosis, and it's ugly.

Robin's mother was abused as a child, probably by an older relative. She internalized the abuse, or, in order to survive, she completely de-activated what Gavin de Becker calls "the Gift of Fear". Unconsciously, she is raising Robin to be a victim of abuse: teaching Robin to not respect her own boundaries, and giving off signals that help abusers (her ex, Pete) target her.

I have no idea what you can or should do. I don't know how to deal with people like her, or if there's anything you can do to give Robin any measure of protection.

[delurker]

:( So creepy!

Perhaps you could let Robin know that if she ever needs help, you're happy to be there for her? I don't think there's much else you can do. :(

[ecaterin]

Seconding this. I can't tell you how many times I've heard abuse survivors say that if they'd had a SINGLE person who they thought would believe them, it may have changed everything. And the survivors I've heard say that they *did* have one person who believed them, and it saved their soul in some deep way.

[firesprite1105]

ITA. I feel really bad for Robin.

[name_les]

Knowing an adult will help could be a big relief. Let her know that if anybody including "friend" tries to touch her, it's OK to make a scene (e.g., scream loudly, shout "stop touching me"...) and it's OK to use violence on a molester/attacker.

If Robin has a chance to point out to him, within his wife's hearing, that a play date with his son would be as creepy as him wanting a play date with her, maybe that would be enough to get the guy to back-off.

I'm pretty sure that the priests who molested the altar boys were considered "good catholics" right up until arrested.

[beachlass]

Oh, yuck.

[cellia.livejournal.com]

This and many other things people teach little girls = profoundly creepy. The "good Catholic" statement almost read as dark humor when I think about the recent content of most of the US press about the Catholic Church.

Also, I know you're not Robin's mother and I'm not sure of the boundaries here, but it might be a good thing to say something somewhere Robin might overhear... so she at least knows that there's an adult with a different pov about what's ok.

[sara]

*blanches* Boy, if you weren't worried before the "He and his wife are good Catholics" line, you sure should be now.

But then, I'm the mother who slapped the cookie that a strange man (and he looked very strange indeed) gave my daughter at the pool last Sunday right out of her hand, as she started to put it into her mouth, and walked her over to one of the private dressing rooms and gave her the Talk about how we NEVER take ANYTHING from men we don't know.

Or even, often, men we do know.

And I know exactly what you mean about other adult women often not taking this sort of thing seriously.

[ecaterin]

*shudder* Ultra creepy - the mom even more than the guy. How appalling. As a childhood abuse survivor, I've been very aware of educating my kids on boundaries & their complete and supreme rights over their own bodies, who to talk to, who to get away from without apology or hesitation. They may be boys, but as far as sexual predators are concerned, pre-pubescent boys may as well be girls. They are targeted almost equally. (and hell, my oldest is so shockingly beautiful it's terrifying - grown women express envy over his hair, his eyes, his bone structure - ak!) It's just so frustrating to know that even though I've armed them as much as they can be armed (and not with bullshit 'stranger danger' but real info), if either of them were ever molested the code of shameful silence would still have a chance of a good hold over them.

How any parent in this day and age could fail to see how they're setting their child up to be sexually assaulted and keep quiet about it, is beyond me. What an idiot.

Maybe you should give her a copy of Protecting the Gift and relieve her of her stupidityeducate her. If she takes even parts of it to heart it could save her child.

[viggorlijah]

That's several red flags especially his threat about telling in her behavior. You won't regret speaking up to tell him at the pool "do not talk to my daughter because your behavior is inappropriate" and shutting down his attempts to justify that. I would also strongly recommend taking both girls for slushies and saying directly that sometimes adults are creepy and make kids feel weird so the adults can enjoy it, then blame the kid which is never okay. Reassure them that there are adults who will listen, from parents to teachers to doctors and you, and that sometimes because it's such a scary sad thing, an adult will pretend it's not real, but again not the kid's fault and they will find someone to help. His wife probably knows but is in denial like kidlet's friend's mom. I would drop a word with the lifeguard if he bugs more kids.

I'm super pushy on this because it's relatively easy to stop early on and very hard later. Yes, you could be overreacting to someone with poor social skills, but you're raising the alarm and giving kids an avenue to safely talk, not accusing him. If he is creepy, he will either vanish or hugely overreact. Non-creeps would apologize and back off in a bit of a huff.

It's awesome for kidlet to see you modeling this protective and assertive behavior for her.

[vickita]

I would drop a word with the lifeguard if he bugs more kids.

That's just what I was thinking. Also yes on letting Robin know you're there for her and giving both girls the little talk, if possible. Kidlet has already heard it, of course, but (a) it never hurts to hear it again, and (b) you're really doing it for Robin's ears. She needs people telling her it's okay to reject this kind of behavior, because she's obviously not getting it at home.

Re: all the ways we tell girls that they're not allowed to set boundaries, omg, YES. It just makes me so freaking angry. Gah.

[copracat]

Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Yes. Hate.

He and his wife are good Catholics.

Like the good Catholics whose abuse of children the Church covered up? Yeah.

[krait]

Not to mention the generations of good Catholics who never molested anyone... but who raised their daughters to believe marriage was the be-all and end-all of their existence. And they had no right to say no once the ring was on their finger. And that included no to children. And abuse was better than divorce. And even if you're miserable, hurt, or in fear of your life, you should put up with it for the sake of "the children", who are more important than your boundaries...

[idahophoenix]

I think you handled this beautifully. Generally when my creep-meter goes off I trust it. It is such a powerful thing to tell a girl (or a boy for that matter) that it is they have a right to say no and even to not be nice. I wonder how very many of us have been stepped on in multiple ways because we learned so deeply that, at all costs, we must be nice.

[krait]

Ooooh, "Be Nice!" That phrase is probably responsible for more female suffering than anyone can calculate. That phrase is why we don't raise a fuss at the first, small intrusions upon our boundaries; that phrase is why we ignore our fears and go off with or into a situation we're not comfortable with. And I suspect it's also behind a lot of the reactions of "No, he wouldn't; he's my neighbour/uncle/best friend's dad (and I have to be nice to him, which means giving the benefit of the doubt)" that come out when somebody does dare to be Not Nice.

[firesprite1105]

Sigh.

And wow, the phrase "good Catholics" does not have positive connotations for me.

[azurelunatic]

Oh, that is very creepy indeed.

Robin sounds like she might need to know that there are adult allies out there.

[julad]

Oh my god, "good Catholics"? That's some very sad irony. What a thoroughly creepy situation, and dangerous for Robin.

But I know exactly what you mean about not telling girls that they draw the boundaries. There are so many behaviours that you're not meant to object to, you're just supposed to giggle or be polite or look modest or be fucking grateful for the attention.

I hope you have a chance to do something for Robin, even if it's having a chat with her and telling her it's OK for her to think the guy is a creep.

[wesleysgirl]

Yuck, yuck, YUCK. That gives me so many bad-creepy feelings.

I don't think it would be inappropriate to communicate your discomfort to the manager/supervisor at the place where the pool is.

I don't think it would be inappropriate to say directly to the guy, "Look, your behavior toward the girls makes me incredibly uncomfortable. You need to back off." It might not be *polite*, but there's a good chance it would make *him* uncomfortable enough that he'd have second thoughts.

I also really, really, hope you can have a brief but serious conversation with Robin. "I know your mom says he's a good guy, but I just don't think he is. The way he's talking to you isn't okay. You need to know that you don't have to talk to him if you don't want to, and that it's okay for you to tell him not to talk to you anymore. If something inside you is telling you that he's not a nice guy, you need to listen."

[bkwyrm]

Did you ever think about all the ways that people tell girls that they don't get to draw boundaries?
All the time. My three year old does not like to give or get kisses, so she doesn't have to. The amount of flack I have gotten for not FORCING my girl to show physical affection that she isn't comfortable with is astonishing. I finally had to sit down and explain it to some of the family members - that I don't ever want her to feel that an adult has the right to touch her when she doesn't want to be touched, or that she must touch someone when she doesn't want to do so.

[laurie_ky]

I was busy typing up my own comment when you posted yours so I've only just read it, but we are on the same page about kids being told to give physical affection.

Laurie

[resonant]

The spouse was in a situation last summer where he bustled the kidlet away from a guy that was making him uncomfortable, and my parents (whom I always expect to know better than this) were second-guessing and questioning him. (Not "Your actions were rude" but "Even suspecting this about another person is rude, even if your behavior is perfectly civil.")

Eventually he said to them, "It does no one any harm to get out of the company of people who make me uncomfortable. It could do terrible harm to communicate to my daughter that she can't get out of the company of people who make her uncomfortable."

He said my mother's jaw literally dropped -- she came back later and told him that it had never occurred to her that that was the message a kid would get.

[ecaterin]

Eventually he said to them, "It does no one any harm to get out of the company of people who make me uncomfortable. It could do terrible harm to communicate to my daughter that she can't get out of the company of people who make her uncomfortable."

*cheers for the spouse!!!!* I give almost this exact speech when I'm counseling parents on any situation where their behaviour is wittnessed by their children. Modeling the behaviour and convictions you wish your child to adopt is vital. They respond much more to what we do than what we say. It seems passive to model healthy boundaries, but it actually extremely active parenting, and people are always shocked to realize that fact.

He said my mother's jaw literally dropped -- she came back later and told him that it had never occurred to her that that was the message a kid would get.

*headdesk* WHY to perfectly smart people continue to believe that children are oblivious to the messages our actions send to them?? Children are incredibly perceptive and absorb every little thing we show them like little sponges. Soooo many times I have had parents change the behaviour of their children by changing their own intentions, without altering their own actions in any way. Always blows my mind, no matter how often I teach that :D Conversely, I can have parents change their actions till the cows come home, but if their intention to win or dominate the situation continues, their children will keep right on with the challenging behaviours. THEY SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOU, PEOPLE. THEY SEE EVERYTHING. I love it :)

Kids have taught me more about being a self-aware, decent, healthy human being than any other force. Our culture doesn't give them any credit whatsoever *rolleyes*

[caseylane]

I had this conversation with my daughter's bf. When my grandson told me no when I asked for a kiss the bf started to make him. I told him to leave the boy alone, that's it's never too early to start teaching them that they determine their boundaries and no one else.

[laurie_ky]

Ah, and how did Robin's mother know Mr. Creepy had talked to the kids? Either Robin talked to her mother and was given signals that she needed to appease the adult man, or Mr. Creepy did a proactive strike with Robin's mom, to disarm her about his interactions with her daughter.

And why on earth make jokes about a five year old dating a twelve year old? That's inappropriate, too.

I can't begin to count the number of conversations I've had with kids and adults about being sexually abused, but this situation has a lot of red flags.

Talking with both girls about boundaries is an excellent idea. You could even bring up the tickling incident from your childhood as an example.

When any parents try and get their kid to give me a hug or a kiss I always stop them and explain that it's not a good idea to give kids the notion that they are supposed to give physcial affection to adults and why this innocent gesture on their part could backfire, could install in their child the idea that adults are owed such touching. (If it's the kid's idea, then yeah, hugs are fine).

Mr. Creepy doesn't come across to me as having poor social skills, he comes across as a predator, checking out the prey for the vulnerable ones he can safely attack.

Laurie

[sapote]

You know, I remember feeling more threatened as a child/teenager that I was being instructed by a caretaker to not "embarrass" adults who thought it was appropriate to, for example, slap my butt in "friendly sportsmanlike greeting" by telling them to cut that shit out then I was in that case by the actual grabass. It was like, oh, good, person telling me to be polite, now I know that you're going to be absolutely useless if something worse happens. Luckily this was enough of a mixed message in my upbringing that I sat there thinking "this is the worst advice in the world", though I don't think it was exactly healthy for me anyway.

I know that this kind of situation is full of delicacy - I always worry about crossing the line and isolating people further - but I agree that if you want to and can, telling friend Robin that if she ever needs help with anything she can talk to you might go a long way.

AAAAAAAAAAHHHH

[rydra_wong]

Today, as she and I and the girls were walking to the locker room, she told me (out of nowhere; I hadn't brought it up) "Pete, the one who was talking to the girls last week? You don't need to worry about him. He and his wife are good Catholics."

It sounds like she's rationalizing it to herself; I'd like to think that on some level she knows how unconvincing that sounds. And I'd bet she's got a history of being told she doesn't get to draw her own boundaries, whether it's a Tickling Uncle or the abusive ex or something else.

I wonder if it might make a difference to model some parental boundary-supporting for her. I.e. saying something like "I've always taught my daughter that she doesn't have to talk to anyone who's making her feel uncomfortable, no matter how respectable they may be."

[aerye]

Oh my god - this story creeps the fuck out of me. I can't help but think that little girl is in danger.

[snailbones]

Yuck - the guy is at the very least a jerk, but far more likely a perv, and the mother is six sorts of idiot.

Good for you, being so alert and giving the bloke the hairy eyeball. I would definitely have a quiet word with the pool's manager; if the guy is behaving like that with one kid, he's thinking about others.

Things like this make me feel grubby just reading them. *shivers*

[woldy]

He and his wife are good Catholics. Like those nice Priests, all of whom are totally safe around children! I'm finding it hard to think of a remark that would be me less likely to believe that someone's behaviour wasn't a prelude to child abuse.

Seconding the suggestion that you have a quiet word with Robin. If there's a US equivalent of Childline then it might be worth dropping the name of that organisation into conversation too.

[pauraque]

Everyone's already said it, but yeah, tell the manager of the pool, and let Robin know you will help her if she needs it.

[giglet]

Did you ever think about all the ways that people tell girls that they don't get to draw boundaries?

Yes, and I hate it.

I see a lot of good advice in the other comments. It looks like you are the best available advocate and source of support for Robin.

[nephir]

Did you ever think about all the ways that people tell girls that they don't get to draw boundaries?

So true, and scary at the same time. I like to think that I raised all three of my daughters to be vocal if they were uncomfortable but I am sure there were times that I wasn't clear enough on the point. I have hopes that we'll be able to do as well if not better with the grand daughter.

[boxofdelights]

Yeah, I was raised a good Catholic, which meant I had no experience saying no to adults, which meant that when I was fourteen and an adult stuck his hand inside my pants and fingered my vulva, I didn't have any idea how to stop him. Literally, no idea! Saying "stop that" did not occur to me. I was a kid! He was a grown-up! Kids do not give grown-ups orders!

And of course I did not tell anyone. My parents would have been angry at me. At the man, too, of course, but I knew that they would vent their anger and shame at me. I shouldn't have been there! I shouldn't have let him!

[ariadne83]

Ugh. As someone who was sexually harassed by a "good Catholic" who was a friend of my parents' that line made me shudder D:

I think about boundaries all the time, especially now that I have a little niece, and I make sure that when she says to stop tickling her I stop. Immediately. I don't know how much of a difference it'll make in the end but it's important to me that she knows there are at least people who will respect what she's says.

[indywind]

Did you ever think about all the ways that people tell girls that they don't get to draw boundaries?

Girls x2. KIDS don't get to draw boundaries (except in perhaps unusually functional families like yours--thank you for existing).

I would give numerous examples of my personal childhood experience relevant to this topic, except I think that might be showing inappropriate boundaries now as an adult. I'm not sure about this because the rules I learned about boundaries are so inconsistent. How circular, eh?

[amberfox]

Hopefully this won't come out badly....

At my house, not only do my KIDS get to decide if someone gets to touch them, my PETS get to decide. If I'm not restraining you for your own safety or for medical treatment, if you want to go hide under the bed for 12 hours, more power to you. If you'd like to come out and spend time with the family, that's great. If not, that's okay, too. Not passive-aggressive okay, really okay. (I suffer from social anxiety; sometimes I don't leave my room for days except for bathroom breaks and sneaking out for water, and maybe food if my stash runs out. I've certainly got no room to tell other people that they're required to smile and make nice.)

Also, a friend brought up on Facebook recently the idea that fat people are socialized to be nice and meek, as if somehow they need to apologize for offending people by their existence. This is extra-true of a lot of women that I know, though it applies to men as well.