Out?

[resonant]

The original sci-fi erotica I'm writing for dementordelta (which I'm now thinking of as "the pouch porn") is getting a lovely polka of a beta, and I'm psyched to do a second draft tomorrow. I'm all excited about it.

In other news, I'm somewhat freaked out because without planning to at all, I went and told my best friend I'm bisexual. This is not a confession I routinely make, in the nonvirtual world -- the spouse knows, but I don't share it freely -- but it came up in conversation, and there was this moment where really my choice was to lie out loud with words ("Oh, yeah, I don't get that either") or to tell the truth.

It was terrifying.

She ... says I'm wrong. "You're not, really," she says.

This is reassuringly normal for her, actually, so my eye-rolling is much softened by relief. However, I still spent the rest of the afternoon feeling strangely freaked out. Guilty, actually, as if I'd done something wrong.

I think I don't tell the truth enough. I need more practice.

Comments

[sparrohawk.livejournal.com]

Well, for what it's worth, this made me laugh out loud. What on EARTH would prompt someone to say such a thing??? WHAT ON EARTH?

"You're not, really."

And I'm laughing again. I just can't imagine it.

"You know, I'm actually extremely fond of the color green."
"You're not, really."
"..."

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

[laughing] Yeah. She's like that, though. You should hear her bait a Best Buy salesboy.

[cimness.livejournal.com]

>Guilty, actually, as if I'd done something wrong.

I think I don't tell the truth enough. I need more practice.


i know what you mean. exactly. i've had approximately that thought lately actually. i feel like i should be very gung-ho and out, sometimes: i mean, my career can't be hurt, or my social climbing or anything, as i'm working a close-to-minimum-wage, no-skills part-time job for fun, and i'm moving at the end of the summer. i just like for people to like me, and no one wants to deal with prejudice, but i'm not ashamed and it makes me angry that i have to think about things as if i am because i *do* believe that it's *their* fault if they have a problem with it. i should just be totally 'my girlfriend' this and 'gay sex' that. but i'm not. however, perhaps i could just come out whenever it seemed unnatural not to, and pretty soon everybody would know. but the opportunities keep coming, and it *does* feel unnatural not to, and i walk around feeling really blah. (i'm not lying to my best friend, so much as to friendly acquaintances, but still.)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

i just like for people to like me, and no one wants to deal with prejudice, but i'm not ashamed and it makes me angry that i have to think about things as if i am because i *do* believe that it's *their* fault if they have a problem with it.

Yeah, exactly!

Plus, since I'm not with a same-sex partner, or looking for a same-sex partner, or ever likely to have a same-sex partner unless something tragic happens to the spouse, telling people about my bisexuality is sort of on the line between "sharing an important part of my identity" and "telling you things you don't want to know about my sexual fantasy life."

[cimness.livejournal.com]

>sort of on the line between "sharing an important part of my identity" and "telling you things you don't want to know about my sexual fantasy life."


i've thought about that. but if you feel that it's part of who you are, you might be frustrated by it--having people assume that you're straight. i feel that way, because since my relationship is long-distance most people don't know about it. and that's what they ALWAYS assume.

[panisdead.livejournal.com]

and there was this moment where really my choice was to lie out loud with words ("Oh, yeah, I don't get that either") or to tell the truth.

Yes. That is a perfect description of that moment, and a hard decision to make.

I had my own moment with my mother the other weekend, where I had the opportunity to either lie or admit that I was morphing from Catholic to Buddhist. I waffled, and I still feel guilty, but I was scared.

I like to keep the big, important stuff close to the vest--this revealing-of-self business is hard.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Wow -- that would be difficult.

It has recently been dawning on me that I have some intimacy problems. (Cue the sound of most of Res's former friends and boyfriends laughing their asses off.) Since it's fairly easy for me to be honest with the spouse, and since I make it a practice to be scrupulously honest online, it had sort of escaped my attention how very dishonest I was with everybody else.

[mzcalypso.livejournal.com]

Congratulations!

There's a great book called "So You Want to Be A Lesbian?" by Liz Tracey & Sidney Pokorny. In the "Coming Out" section ("No, Mom, I didn't say Lebanese," they talk about "acidental" coming out -- "Whoops, I just came out to Aunt Martha and she passed out in the strudel." They say don't worry, act accordingly,which in this case the first thing to do is fish Aunt Martha out of the pastry. It's a funny book, but there's a lot of good sense under the smart-ass remarks.

"You're not, really," is pretty close to the reaction they call "Selective Hearing Loss," or "It's just a phase, dear." It's interesting how some people that you'd think would be fine with it simply vanish, and some you think would freak barely blink. In the long run, being out to as many folks as possible is infinitely easier, but -- to whom and when is so personal it's a decision nobody else can make.

I hope your friend manages to realize you are still the same person, and only her mental image is different now. Good luck!

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Sounds similar to the Plaid Adder's fabulous The Straight Person's Guide to Gay Etiquette, (http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/queer/etiquette/intro.html) which made me laugh so hard I cried.

:D

[anoddplace.livejournal.com]

I was just going to mention Plaidder's guide (hilarious, even from the straight side of things), but it appears I've been beat out. :D I at least understand how annoying the "phase" response is, since I get it from my mother whenever I mention the fact that, no, really, I DON'T want kids. Ever.

Oh, and that "truth" thing? Congrats. :D

[china_shop]

I think t-shirts are the answer. It's there, in the open, but you don't have to say it, and if they want to talk about it, they have to bring it up.

Not that I have a t-shirt, oh no. (Well, I have one that says 'Bi NZ Maid', but the writing is small and no-one reads it: they just look at the 'buy NZ made' logo.) I have pride rings that I wore for some years; people would ask about them and, depending on circumstances, I'd answer 'my coloured curtain-ring collection' or 'I got them at the gay and lesbian fair' (suitably vague). I have a 'Go Fish' t-shirt, which is I guess only going to be noticed by queer women anyway.

But yeah, especially now I have a male partner, it's so much easier to come out non-verbally. (No, not non-verbally like that! Like the other thing!) I should practise what I preach.

She's your best friend? Hence being open with her is good. Don't feel guilty. (This is advice, rather than the bossy order it sounds like. ;-)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Actually, now that the Tech Goddess knows, there are really no relationships left to risk by being honest (except my relatives, which is a whole different ballgame). Maybe I should get a T-shirt. "Monogamous, but still looking at your breasts," maybe.

[zebra363.livejournal.com]

I think t-shirts are the answer.

Artwork in your house is good, too. I'm not very out about slash, but I have a framed Steve Walker (www.questart.com) print of a gay couple at home and I make sure that everyone who visits sees it. It says "pro-homosexuality" loud & clear.

[china_shop]

Oh, that's a great idea! I'm out on my bookshelf, but not on my walls.

[jack-pride.livejournal.com]

Don't take this the wrong way (always a bad way to start a post), but I'm finding myself unsettled with the concept of being in the closet with your best friend. I... can't make it compute. It's now making me wonder how many bisexual people I know online who are only really out in the virtual world. If I can figure out that poll thing, maybe I'll find out.

The whole "ohgodIjustcameouttoyouandwhatreactionwillyouhave" feeling, however, I'm perfectly familiar with. No need for guilt - be proud of your guts. You didn't lie.

[millefiori.livejournal.com]

I'm finding myself unsettled with the concept of being in the closet with your best friend

I can definitely understand that, but I also think that it's kind of hard to 'come out' as bisexual, particularly if you're currently with a partner of the opposite sex, or are well known to have had partners of the opposite sex. I'm not sure how often it comes up in natural conversation (in my experience, not often to not at all), and because being bi is so ambiguous, it's hard for people to get a mental handle on it. I would suspect that most people, looking at a bisexual person from the outside, are mentally categorizing them as gay (if they're in a same-sex relationship) or straight (if they're in an opposite-sex relationship), since people as a rule want to be able to 'understand' any thing as this or that. And I think I've wandered away from your point entirely....

[jack-pride.livejournal.com]

No, that's good. That's helpful, thanks.

Because of the way I lean in conversations, it actually comes up really often, really quickly for me - but I'm single and comment on chicks a lot. Really, the harder part for me is in clarifying that I'm actually bi, not lesbian. *g*

I've just never really had the experience of having to come out to a close friend because if they're a close friend then they know *all* about me. In glorious, technocolour detail, even. ;) Coming out to family was a bit more like that, I guess.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I think that's the source of some of the guilt. I mean, we've been best friends for eleven years, so you'd think I'd have gotten around to it.

On the other hand, and in my defense, I've had a monogamous relationship with the same guy since 1982, when we met at the age of eighteen. So the question of whom I might desire has been purely hypothetical for me for more than two decades, and its relevance to other people is something that I'm not consistently convinced of.

[jack-pride.livejournal.com]

I think that's the source of some of the guilt. I mean, we've been best friends for eleven years, so you'd think I'd have gotten around to it.

Gotcha. I guess, though, that if you're not out from the start, and it's not something that really comes up... when would you choose to rock the boat? Like, what - "Oh, by the way..."? So yeah, I can kinda see that. And when it did come up you didn't lie.

On the other hand, it does kind of give some credence to her, "No, you're not," response. Because I can understand her feeling that she should have somehow recognized it if it were true. Res, hon, you weren't amping up your stereotypical bisexual look! ;) (Wait, what *is* the stereotypical bisexual look? Lesbians get butch, gay guys get the good fashion sense...)

So the question of whom I might desire has been purely hypothetical for me for more than two decades, and its relevance to other people is something that I'm not consistently convinced of.

Gotcha. The only reason I can see it coming up would be in your politics, but it's not like there aren't glbt friendly straight folk.

[buddleia.livejournal.com]

Sympathy. Especially with the weird guilt. It's difficult, when it shouldn't be anything.

Somebody once told me they didn't 'believe' in bisexuality when it came up. I remember asking her if she thought I was Father Christmas. But I can be pretty useless, too. My married bi best friend got very shirty indeed when I told her she'd lost her 'gay card'.

[vampiresetsuna.livejournal.com]

ooh, congrats! even though "you're not really" isn't the best responce you could've gotten, it's not as bad as it could've been. Strange how those things are so nervious-making.

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

Well if it's any consolation, being Bi myself, I believe you!

And I can't recall the source of the quote, but this is one of my favourites: "If you tell the truth, or as much of it as seems safe, at all times, then eventually you will find yourself surrounded by people to whom you do not need to lie."

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

See, that's the weird thing. In my other life (i.e. here), it's normal. A fannish friend once told me she felt guilty for not having any bisexual urges. (I told her I'd do my best to be open-minded.)

Even on Table Talk (my previous online community, which was not fannish and was heavily skewed toward moms swapping childrearing advice), I'd say 50% of the women identified as either lesbian or bi. Which makes me wonder how many of my friends are in the same boat and just not confessing.

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

Probably quite a few. There are, after all, many social penalties being legitimized against alternative expressions of sexuality these days. And being called a freak to one's face is never a happy thing.
*shrug*
I'm just happy that people who want to hate me genetally don't have to look all the way into my bedroom to find the excuse to do it. My religion, political leanings, and outspoken attitudes generally give them all the ammunition they need long before they get that close.

[anoddplace.livejournal.com]

A fannish friend once told me she felt guilty for not having any bisexual urges.

Word! to that. Sometimes I feel guilty that I don't join in the sort of virtual flirting that seems to go on in the slash community. It's interesting, feeling like the only girl in fandom who finds breasts to be devoid of any interest. Sometimes I feel like I should join in just because everyone else does it-- but in real life I'm not a flirtatious person, so it would be a fictional flirtation (which has another name, too: "lie").

(I told her I'd do my best to be open-minded.)

That was rather nice of you. :D

[halimede.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I'm not at all sure the flirting is related to bisexuality perse. Straight women, knowing each other to be straight, can still flirt with each other in a sexual way, in my experience. So yeah, lots of us identify as bi (me too if you were wondering, and you probably weren't) but that might not really be the point with the flirting, necessarily. Which doesn't mean you should feel obliged to, because obviously some people are flirtier than others and that's okay. In my not-so-humble-in-this-case opinion anyway. :)

Good for you.

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

I'm out to varying extents in different contexts, myself; I've never "officially" told my family I'm bi, though I figure my sister knows and probably my parents guess. Being married to a POS makes it easy to "pass" in much of the RL world, which is probably just as well in a work context, for me. Online I'm more open about it because I'm largely anonymous anyway.

It's a weird thing to be bi, especially if you're married and monogamous, because there will always be people who think you can't really be bi unless you're actively involved with both men and women (or at least with one of each), and thus married-monogamy seems impossible to them. (I leave aside married-not-monogamous, not wishing to make assumptions about you, so I speak only for myself.)

But cheers on being truthful about something like that! It's never easy.

[BTW - you are an evil influence. I have written two draft pages of a story about a Malfoy ancestor coming to Britain in the wake of William the Conqueror. I have to go buy a map of Wiltshire now, and assorted books such as an edition of the Anglo-Saxon chronicle and one of the Domesday Book.)

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

It's a weird thing to be bi, especially if you're married and monogamous, because there will always be people who think you can't really be bi unless you're actively involved with both men and women (or at least with one of each),

Or people who think that if you're only having sex with a person of the opposite sex, then by definition you're het.

My friend is not exactly in this camp, but she apparently believes that since I've had very little actual same-sex experience (because of the aforementioned falling in love with the spouse at the age of eighteen), I therefore must be mistaking "I have a deep emotional bond with you" for "I want to remove your clothes with my teeth."

And I don't really want to enlighten her in any detail, because I'm so dreading the "Have you ever been attracted to me?" question from her. To which an honest answer would begin, "Let me tell you about the things I know about your collarbone, and the bridge of your nose, and your second toe ..."

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

I have a close friend with whom I was madly in love for the first couple of YEARS that I knew her, in the teeth/clothes way. But since we were both happily married, and it just would have made her uncomfortable to know, I have never told her.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

[nodding] Yeah, I'm thinking that if that question comes up, I'm going to choose to answer a different question.

Oh yes...

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

I've been lucky (perhaps) in never having gotten that question, because it would be difficult to answer honestly - if you say yes, they could be highly embarrassed, and if you say no, they could be insulted...

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

I have written two draft pages of a story about a Malfoy ancestor coming to Britain in the wake of William the Conqueror. I have to go buy a map of Wiltshire now, and assorted books such as an edition of the Anglo-Saxon chronicle and one of the Domesday Book.

Yay! Hooray! I'm a cause of book-buying in myself and others!

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

I really do not need any encouragement to buy books! ;-) Already I'm going to have to purchase some sort of cheap case to haul books home with me - they won't fit into the suitcase I brought. Not that book-buying is a bad thing, of course...

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Truth is tricky.,

Pouch porn: I like that.

beta polka: I like that, too.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Have you experienced the polka beta? The wild, exhilarating dance where you and your beta are whirling around the room in perfect time, and it's thrilling even when you know that if you take one false step you're going to slam into a wall?

Some betas are more like being dual-hitched to a very heavy wagon and having to pull it up a steep hill, and others are like being hit with wet towels.

[lobelia321.livejournal.com]

Sad to say I have experienced none of the three beta experiences you describe.

I have obviously been beta-deprived.

[overnighter.livejournal.com]

Straight women, knowing each other to be straight, can still flirt with each other in a sexual way, in my experience.

I'm finding this whole discussion fascinating for a couple of reasons.

The first is that I come from a family where the whole mighty mass of women (and there are bunches of us, good Irish-Catholics that we are) are very, um, let's call it "body-positive." There's lots of talking about breasts and sex and grabbing of each other's bits and pretend-making-out at bars, which sounds a lot pornier and dirtier and incestuous when written down than it actually is in person, but still . . . not necessarily everyone's family-reunion experience. So I totally get the straight-women-flirting thing.

The second is that, while I routinely find myself thinking of other women as beautiful or even sexually attractive, I've never thought of myself as bisexual. I just assumed that I'm sexually open or sexually flexible on the Kinsey scale, albeit in a very "parts is parts" kind of way.

It's sort of the same reason that I like slash, or the way I have crushes on movie stars -- I like the idea of beautiful people behaving beautifully together. But in the same way I never have cozy domestic fantasies about Russell Crowe and I setting up housekeeping somewhere, I never think about women in a relationship sense -- which I always thought was kind of my inner-lesbian threshold. Just about the hot, meaningless fantasy sex.

Hmmm. Maybe I'm less straight than I think I am -- I just assumed that all women have these thoughts secretly, but just don't talk about them, just like most people don't talk about, say, their masturbation techniques. I just always thought of it more as a bedroom-fantasy kink than as a lifestyle choice. Great. Somewhere, Catholic priests and bisexual and lesbian women are all praying for my fallen soul, each side wondering where they went wrong.

[halimede.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm less straight than I think I am -- I just assumed that all women have these thoughts secretly, but just don't talk about them, just like most people don't talk about, say, their masturbation techniques.,/i>

Quite possibly some or even most do and consider themselves straight, but then everybody draws the demarcation line somewhere else. For me it's 'is it visceral?' That thing where I feel giddy and all but drool over a (to me) beautiful female body? That's what makes me bow out of the straight straight-jacket. Then again, really I think it's all just preference: some are inclined to like tall people, or muscled ones, or curvy ones, or a sexy voice makes them all weak-kneed. Or maybe it's some strange, indefineable combination of geeky, sweet, and the way they move or whatever. In among all those things, it's sort of weird to make a big thing of gender-preference. But that's very theoretical, because in 'the real world' people obviously do.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

It was a great surprise to me to discover how many different ways people had of defining the words 'gay,' 'straight,' and 'bi.'

See, when I say 'bi,' I mean, 'desires both men and women.' Full stop. So by that definition, you'd be bi, for sure.

I find any other use of the word kind of baffling, honestly, but I guess other people would find my single-minded focus on desire equally baffling.

[ashice-roses.livejournal.com]

wow, everyone here has made me think seriously about being bi. You all have very interesting things to say about it, and as a person who hasn't yet 'come out' to my family or friends yet, very relevant to what I am going through at the moment! The subject did come up once, but it was skirted around quite nicely, and hasn't been up since. I do have a friend who is also bi, and everyone else knows, but how do you tell them that you are as well? I think a couple of my friends know, or guess about me, I have kinda talked about it with one of them( unsurprisingly a guy), and its not awkward or anything. Maybe I don't need to come right out and say it? Interesting concept. And I think thats the one I will go with! Its not a matter of telling the truth, or lieing, I just don't think they need to know it right out. If anyone talks to me about it, of course I'll say 'Yeah, I am', but if any of them know me properly, and I hope they do, I don't need to come out and say it, they will know anyway.

Well, thats the theory...

So what is bi, anyway?

[wordwitch.livejournal.com]

A non-fandom story I'm writing has driven me to come up with a set of words that define the whole thing alternatively, anyway:

Can you feel sexual desire for the person you fall in love with, regardless of that person's appearance/gender/age? You are duntan (desire follows affection). This is considered normal.

Does your desire depend on the appearance/gender/age of the person to the point of being nonpresent for someone you love if it is not correct, and present for someone you do not love? You are dinitan (desire is fixed in object). This is considered abnormal and pitiable, and inspires truly alarming matchmaking efforts in the people who know about it.

Is your ability to feel affection so profoundly affected by appearance/gender/age that you fall in love with each and all of the instances of this? You are tandun (affection follows desire). This is considered untrustworthy by those looking for permanent relationships.

Are you unable to feel desire at all, regardless of attractiveness or love? You are nltan (absence of desire). This gets a response of "ooookayyy," and has people treating you rather like a nun - refraining from bawdy jokes and the like. It is also considered a probably temporary situation, though people who "want to bring you out of it" are scorned and reviled.

Which means, if you're duntan, you can be as bi as you wanna be and still be monagamous (or trigamous, as indicated), without doing violence to your core self. But if you're dinitan, it doesn't matter if you like males or if you like females: your options are considered limited.

[resonant8.livejournal.com]

Now, that's a really interesting approach. Good sci-fi thinking.

When I examine myself, though, I find that I don't desire everyone I love -- or even everyone I love who isn't off-limits due to some taboo (blood relatives, too young, too old, currently sleeping with my mother, whatever).